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The BEST description of Josephus and Jesus

Posted 08-05-2018 at 09:52 AM by normstad


The BEST description of Josephus and Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Wrong on first three accounts. Not eye-witnesses. Matthew makes no direct claim in his gospel to being an eyewitness and heavily plagiarised Mark... …which an "eye-witness" wouldn't need to do.
Luke was not a follower of Jesus, he was a follower of Paul. Because some spurious stories about your man-god were circulating, Luke interviewed people who claimed to have known your man-god. So the Gospel of Luke is nothing more than second hand stories from people who claimed to have known this Jesus

Mark wrote down what Peter had told him about who Jesus was, what he did, where he went and what happened. Mark's gospel is therefore Peter's account, written down by Mark.

The Gospel of John was written far too long after the events to have been written by an eye-witness.

Unfortunately for you, the 'Jesus' that they accept existed is not the same Jesus that you want to have existed. It is only theologians and apologists that accept the existence of the Jesus that you want to have existed.

There is NO historical evidence for the Jesus that YOU want.

Which Jesus? Josephus mentioned many Jesus'

1. Jesus, son of Phabes – High priest. Ant 15.322
2. Jesus, son of Ananus – Common man prophesied destruction of the temple. War 6.300
3. Jesus, – High priest. Ant 12.239
4. Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias. War 2.566, War 2.599; Life 1.066, Life 1.134
5. Jesus, brother of Onias – High priest. Ant 12.237, Ant 12.238, Ant 12.239
6. Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest. Ant 20.213, Ant 20.223
7. Jesus, no patronym – Eldest high priest after Ananus. War 4.238, War 4.316, War 4.325
8. Jesus, son of Damneus – High priest. Ant 20.203
9. Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend. War 4.160; Life 1.193, Life 1.204
10. Jesus, son of Nun – Successor to Moses. Ant 03.049, Ant 03.308; Ant 4.459
11. Jesus, son of Shapat – Principal head of a band of robbers controlling Tiberias, sallies against Vespasian's messenger Valerian. War 3.450
12. Jesus, son of Thebuthus – One of the priests, delivers to Titus precious things deposited in the temple. War 6.387
13. Jesus, son of Josadek – High priest. Ant 20.231, Ant 20.234
14. Jesus, no patronym – Galilean at head of a band of 600 followers, sent by Ananus & Jesus to depose Josephus. Life 1.200
15. Jesus, no patronym – Condemned to cross by Pilate. He was [the] Christ. Ant 18.063
16. Jesus, no patronym – Captain of those robbers who were in the confines of Ptolemais, allies with Josephus. Life 1.105
17. Jesus, brother of Jacob – Called the Christ. Ant 20.200

In Antiquities of the Jews

11:298 Jesus, (son of Eliashib), brother of John – friend of governor Bagoses.
11:299 Jesus, [son of Eliashib] – slain by brother John, the High priest.
11:300 Jesus, [son of Eliashib]
11:301 Jesus, [son of Eliashib] – slain by brother John, the High priest.
12:237 Jesus, brother of Onias III – High priest.
12:238 Jesus, brother of Onias III – Deposed as High priest in favor of Onias = Menelaus
12:239 Jesus, younger brother of Onias = Menelaus – High priest.
12:239 Jesus, brother of Onias III – Renamed Jason. Revolts against Onias = Menelaus.
15:041 Jesus, (brother of Onias III)
15:322 Jesus, son of Phabes – High priest.
17:341 Jesus, the son of Sie – High priest.
18:063 Jesus, no patronym – Condemned to cross by Pilate. He was [the] Christ.
20:200 Jesus, brother of Jacob – Called the Christ.
20:203 Jesus, son of Damneus – High priest.
20:205 Jesus, [son of Damneus] – High priest.
20:213 Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest.
20.213 Jesus, son of Damneus – Deposed as High priest.
20:223 Jesus, son of Gamaliel – High priest.
20:234 Jesus, son of Josadek – High priest.

War
2:566 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
2:599 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
3:450 Jesus, son of Shapat – Principal head of a band of robbers controlling Tiberias.
3:452 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
3:457 Jesus, [son of Shapat] – Departs Tiberius to Taricheae
3:467 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
3:498 Jesus, [son of Shapat]
4:160 Jesus, son of Gamala – Best esteemed, with Ananus ben Ananus, of High priests.
4:238 Jesus, no patronym – Eldest high priest after Ananus.
4:270 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:283 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:316 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:322 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:325 Jesus, no patronym – [Eldest high priest after Ananus].
4:459 Jesus [Joshua] son of Nun.
6:114 Jesus, no patronym – High priest, deserts to Vespasian.
6:300 Jesus, son of Ananus – Common man prophesied destruction of the temple.
6:387 Jesus, son of Thebuthus – One of the priests, deserts to Titus.

Life
1:066 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
1:067 Jesus, son of Sapphias – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:105 Jesus, no patronym – Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.
1:108 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:109 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:110 Jesus, no patronym – [Captain of those robbers in the confines of Ptolemais.]
1:134 Jesus, son of Sapphias – Governor of Tiberias.
1:178 Jesus, no patronym – Brother of Justus of Tiberias.
1:186 Jesus, no patronym – Brother of Justus of Tiberias.
1:193 Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend.
1:200 Jesus, no patronym – Galilean at head of a band of 600, sent to depose Josephus.
1:204 Jesus, son of Gamala – High priest & Josephus’ friend.
1:246 Jesus, no patronym – Owned a house big as a castle. Governor of Tiberias?
1:271 Jesus, no patronym – Governor of Tiberias.
1:278 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:294 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:295 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:300 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]
1:301 Jesus, no patronym – [Governor of Tiberias.]

...so which Jesus? There are many Jesus' above who, as High Priests might be referred to as 'Christ'

...and it is inconceivable that official Roman sources would have referred to 'Christ' so he didn't get his 'Jesus' info from official sources... which would support the likelihood that what he wrote was something that he had heard from Christians or other 'gossip'.

It's possible that he did write it but not as it. There is evidence of later Christian interpolation.

What 'most historians' accept is the possibility of some itinerant rebel, rabbi wandering around upsetting the authorities. Those historians do not accept that the Jesus of the gospels existed...and if the other Jesus was not the son of Yahweh as depicted in the gospels- then he is irrelevant to history.

So if the miracles were not true and 'Jesus' was just a rebel rabbi with no supernatural powers to save us from damnation, what good is he too us? Whether or not there was a historical 'Jesus' is quite irrelevant.

There is that 'Damn! I don't have an answer' emoji again.

Ok. So there was an itinerant rebel, rabbi wandering around and causing trouble in the 1st century...one of many hundreds no doubt. So what? How does that have any bearing on our life today?

So what. How does that present a case for Gospel Jesus?

...and yet there is no evidence for them to base a claim for a historical Jesus.

There is no physical or archaeological evidence for Jesus. All sources are documentary, mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

See directly above. There is no evidence.

Yes it is...because Christianity is following a Jesus that did not exist. They follow Jesus The Christ Son of Yahweh the Hebrew god of War...and that is not the 'Jesus' that 99.9% of historians accept existed.

...just as the workings of Ganesha have been experienced by Hindus huh?

So could the followers of every other religion in existence. So you are either all deluded or the gods of all other religions exist. Which is it?

Are the experiences of all other religious followers also valid?

Do you see where you are going wrong? You argue that 99.9% of historians argue for an itinerant rebel rabbi with no supernatural powers...and then you immediately make that person into a god when all the historians you use as authority do not accept the 'god' attributes of 'Jesus'.


Utter rubbish! Can you honestly sit there and expect us to believe that someone walking on water, raising the dead, feeding thousand with very little food and all the other alleged miracles would have gone un-noticed. Zombies rising from the grave and walking around Jerusalem, unexplained darkness - and nobody except one gospel writer noticed!

As many have done throughout history. If Muslims today are willing to die for what they believe, does it make the belief true?

As do the followers of some religions still do in some parts of the world. What's your point.

The historical fact are that if Theodosius had not made it the official religion of the Roman Empire it would have lived and died as it was, an obscure religious blood sect.

Once it became the official religion, it had full reign to persecute and torture anyone that didn't sign up. Christianity didn't grow because it was true. It grew because people were only given two choices...convert or die....and you assume that any documents that come to light will be favourable to Christianity?

Aaaahahaha! WCL. Another one from the Gary Habermas ranch who base all their evidence for the existence of Jesus on the Gospels being true!
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