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Old 09-25-2012, 03:32 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,274,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Sheena, since the children you will be hosting will only be with you for a few weeks, in your position, I think I'd keep their names, so it would be one less change for them, as they'll be encountering all sorts of new things while they're visiting. Their names may not sound great to you, but they belong to the children and changing them right away might cause unnecessary distress, especially since the children are just visiting while being hosted, which is not the same as adoption.

Once you get to know them a bit, you might ask them if they'd like to use American nicknames "just for fun" while they are visiting. "Olesya" is pronounced "O-LAY-sia", so perhaps she could be called "Lacey" and her actual name could be retained. "Alicia" also has a very similar sound. Also, "Olga" is often pronounced "Ol-ya" in Ukraine. St. Olga figured prominently in the early history of the Russian Orthodox Church, hence there are many Olgas in Russia and Ukraine.

I don't know if there are any nicknames for "Oleg", but will ask around - most formal names of Russian derivation do have nicknames which are popular for children.

If you hope to eventually adopt these children, you probably already know that families who host are cautioned that the hosted children they may come to love very much may not be available, for one reason or another, when the time comes to travel to Ukraine for adoption. This might be another easy to procede with caution in regard to their names.

I hope everyone has a grand time during the children's visit - what a great opportunity for them to travel to the US and experience another country!
Craig I will adopt them after hosting. I am just asking for some ideas. I am not asking for opinions about doing it.

As you know it is quite normal for parents to name their children - by birth or adoption. Any ideas? Anyone? If you don't agree with this that's OK. I'm not taking a poll here.

They will not be raised in the Russian Orthodox Church, Craig. I doubt that they have ever been to church. None of the many ditsky dom kids who I have hosted had been to church.

I'm very involved in my church and my children are as well.

 
Old 09-25-2012, 03:54 PM
 
10,512 posts, read 8,446,513 times
Reputation: 19262
Whoa, Sheena, that was a bit, well...unexpected. Sorry my post didn't go down well with you; I had understood that you were asking for ideas about names, so responded accordingly.

I hope you will be able to adopt this little trio, and that all will go well during their hosting and beyond.
 
Old 09-25-2012, 04:11 PM
 
116 posts, read 85,525 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
It is an attack on me, when people are telling me what my daughter feels when she does not feel that way.

I think we are suggesting, based upon our experiences of being adopted, that your daughter may be pushing away anything Korean at this time because she could behiding from you her true feelings. And, she is young. She may not know how she feels. Please consider counseling for her as she may be experiencing deep grief and not know how to deal with it.

There is a book or website called Ambiguous Loss. Please look this up.

This is not an attack, more of concern. My adopted parents did not care on damn bit of how I felt. They assumed I was happy growing up. Turns out, I was very depressed but with no one to identify the issues and grief, I kept it all inside.

It's an attack when people have said that I and other adoptive parents should learn to live childless/ It's child free when it's your choice. Childless when you didn;t chose it.

It's not an attack. This is how you perceive what we say. You already gave birth once. You are not childless. Then you adopted. You are not childless. What I said earlier is to accept your lot in life: all of us. Adoptees have no choice but to accept our lot in life. Our parents made choices that we have to live with. You do not have the choice to have another child by conception and birth. Accepting that reality is healthy. Bemoaning about it being secondary childlessness is not accepting it, especially since you moved on to adoption.

Why don't you take a step back and see how the plethora of negative comments could be hurtful.

Adoptees are making statements. We have not been heard in the decades we have been speaking out to make changes needed. We are used to pre and adoptive parents not hearing us and accusing us of being negative. If you are hurt by what we say, perhaps there is truth in our words. We need to defend ourselves and stand up for our rights and our feelings.

I made comments and I'm asking you to respond. Do you agree that the fact is that in a world where there are children without families, it's a good thing that people are wiling, anxious even to parent and love the children birthed by other's?

I agree that there are plenty of children who need families to love them and care for them. HOW that happens is the issue. There are plenty of domestic children who need care right now, but you don't want these kids to have visitation with their own siblings or grandparents. That is selfish of you. So you would rather go into another country to satisfy your needs and your wants to make sure that the child of your choice will have no chance at all to have any contact with anyone related to them by blood to meddle in your life. You willfully want to prevent your adoptees from contact with their families. That is a form of abuse. I know. My own loving adoptive mother felt the exact same way as you do. She prevented me from knowing about my own siblings --- my, how loving of her. But she was anxious to parent me, on the condition that I stay the hell away from my own siblings and they stay away from me.

Do you also understand that I have no problem with you being able to see the records that are so important to you?

If you really felt that way, you would actually be in the fight in your state legislative action for adoptees' rights. You would be actively talking with the Dept of State to complain that they require falsified birth certificates before the forein born child leaves the country and is formally adopted. I do not see any evidence of you doing that.



If you have a petition I'll sign it.

There are plenty of petitions online. Try looking up Change dot org for adoptee rights. Go to Adoptees Rights Coalition and join. And come to our annual rallies and demonstrations. Join American Adoption Congress and come to our annual conferences. There's one in Cleveland in the Spring. I'll meet you there. Bring your hubby and children as the whole family can learn and participate. Back in the 80s, we had a group called Adoptive Parents For Open Records. I sued to know the couple who started it. Lost touch, they may be old now. But you can start a new organization like that!

Do you think that children have the same rights as adults? They do not. I doubt that they ever will.
When parents divorce which they do 50% of the time or more - do adults need to ask permission?

No, they don't have to ask their kids permission to get divorced. But kids do have rights. And they deserve respect.

Do you also think that I should enlighten my daughter to be unhappy that she was adopted?

I think you are misunderstanding what has been said. Your daughter may not be aware of how she is feeling. She may be very hurt and angry and is hiding it deep inside and that's why she gets angry when you want her to go to Culture Camp. It is rubbing it in her face that she is not in Korea where she was born. She may have conflicting feelings about her mother and father there and may have conflicting feelings for you, too. She lvoes you and may may be afraid to let you know she may have feelings for her other parents. But you say she wants nothing to do with that random woman. For a kid to say that tells me she is hurting. Again, please read adoption psychology books and seek a competent adoption therapist to be sure everything is okay now. In the future, your family may need the help.

As a fellow veg*n, can you understand that my daughter has no desire to visit Korea, where dogs and cats ate boiled alive and skinned alive? I understand it.Do you?

I do not know about Korea so I can't say about cats and dogs...if she hears this, she may be afraid of her homeland. Do you undertand that she needs a healthy education about her homeland to feel good about herself? Where did she get the idea that cats and dogs are boiled and skinned alive? From you? My God! I'd be afraid, too, if I were told that's how my homeland was! I would have no desire to go there and I'd be repulsed by my people, too, and deny that they are my people.

Should I force her to go to culture camp when she hates the idea? Should I force her to call herself Tae Hee? She loves her first name and it suits her.

You shouldn't force her into anything. You gave her a name plaque and re-named her and she is happy right now. When she is ready to explore her roots, she will, or won't.

Does it bother you that we decided to adopt internationally?

Yes. There are plenty of children in need right here. Take care of our own. Right here. In your home town or city. Plenty of needy children just blocks from your house.

I have answered your questions and I hope you will answer mine.

I did answer your questions. I have answered adoptive parents questions since 1974. Very few are willing to listen and change themselves or change the system.

Sheena
I hope this prints...still learning this forum's formate.
 
Old 09-25-2012, 04:22 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,154,562 times
Reputation: 18796
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
As you know it is quite normal for parents to name their children - by birth or adoption.
Before you make any decisions, I sincerely hope that you ask the children if they WANT new names. They aren't infants -- these are children who were named by their birth parents and who have been using those names their entire lives. Taking those names away from them without their consent is a cruel thing to do .....
 
Old 09-25-2012, 04:58 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,864,327 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Whoa, Sheena, that was a bit, well...unexpected. Sorry my post didn't go down well with you; I had understood that you were asking for ideas about names, so responded accordingly.

I hope you will be able to adopt this little trio, and that all will go well during their hosting and beyond.
Craig, I thought you had some wonderful ideas. Your posts are always interesting to read because of your great knowledge about the Ukraine.

Btw I wasn't sure what "ditsky dom" meant, so I googled it and it sounded to me like "detski dom" is a word used for orphanage, the original detski dom being an experimental school in Russia. Perhaps you could expand on that and enlighten us more, Craig?

Detski Dom: Definition from Answers.com
 
Old 09-25-2012, 05:05 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,906 posts, read 36,360,192 times
Reputation: 42509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
Before you make any decisions, I sincerely hope that you ask the children if they WANT new names. They aren't infants -- these are children who were named by their birth parents and who have been using those names their entire lives. Taking those names away from them without their consent is a cruel thing to do .....
I agree. The children might not be attached to their current names, but they are old enough to have an opinion about it. I would not tell a child that his name sounds ugly in our language or that she would be much happier with a "normal-sounding" name. That can fill a child with shame and self-doubt. We're not talking about a pet to bring home from the pound, or even a small baby. These are children who can talk and who know what their names are. They may be interested in getting a new name as a symbol of their new life with you (and if so, great), or they may already have ideas about what they would rather be called, such as the name of someone they admire or like. Perhaps you have already had those conversations with the children. I think what a few people are saying is that if you did not think about what the children would want and settle it first, then that would be a hurtful thing to do.

Also:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I am just asking for some ideas. I am not asking for opinions about doing it.

As you know it is quite normal for parents to name their children - by birth or adoption. Any ideas? Anyone? If you don't agree with this that's OK. I'm not taking a poll here.
This is an open forum, and the topic is whether it's OK to change the names of older children. If you post about something that is on topic, everybody is going to talk about it. If you want to restrict who is able to speak to you, please start a blog. If you don't want us to talk about these children, don't bring them into the conversation.
 
Old 09-25-2012, 06:44 PM
 
10,512 posts, read 8,446,513 times
Reputation: 19262
Susankate:

A "detsky dom" is the Russian language term used for an orphanage for children ages approximately four through seven. It translates as "children's home".

In Ukraine, Russia, and other countries which were once part of the former Soviet Union, there are "baby houses" for infants through age three or four (I can't remember the Russian words for "baby house", then detsky doms, then "internats", or "boarding school orphanages" for children ages seven or eight through sixteen or seventeen. Sometimes children who live nearby with their families also attend school in the internats, as day students.

Children with special needs usually are sent to baby houses, along with typical children, then may make it to the detsky dom if they are high-functioning and ambulatory and able to feed and dress themselves. Or they may be transferred to a mental institution at age four or five. Children with special needs who get to the detsky doms may be sent to the internat at age seven or eight, or once again, they may be transferred to the mental institution. They will remain there until they are 35, at which time they are moved once again, to a mental institution for "older" individuals. Usually such institutions are poorly funded, and often they are located in very isolated villages and rarely receive visitors.

Or they may be sent to a "specialized internat" at age seven or eight, such as one I know of in Ukraine which is labeled "for mental defectives". In reality, most of the children at this place are intellectually typical, but a few have mild physical special needs, such as cleft palates, mild CP, etc. Children are sometimes sent to such places simply because there is space there.

At this particular place, which is old, shabby and poorly funded but located in a village quite close to a major industrial city, children DO attend school, but lack adequate school books and other supplies. Caregivers are kindly, but supervision is lacking, especially at night and on weekends, leading to issues between the youngest, more vulnerable children and the older teens. The children get adequate amounts of food, but it's not the most nutritious, and many look pale. Clothing is old and mostly hand-me-downs and donations which are worn day after day. Dental care is non-existent, nor do children receive therapies or needed surgeries for things like the aforementioned CP or cleft palate. But this place is far from the worst...that role is reserved for the mental institutions.

There are some orphanages in Ukraine which are much better funded, and are more or less "showcase" orphanages for typical children. Usually such places are detsky doms, for children ages four through seven or eight. There are also a few decent orphanages for children with special needs, one for children ages seven through sixteen or so who have orthopedic issues. The comparative handful of children who live here are well-treated and receive good educations - many are currently in various phases of adoption by Americans, as if they remain here, they, too will be sent to mental institutions upon "graduation", or be turned out onto their own resources in a few cases of less severely impacted children, a huge waste and tragedy. But at least they are well-cared for physically and medically while they are living in this internat, and benefit by receiving appropriate education.

I recently learned about another special-needs orphanage, this one for younger children through age sixteen, with separate buildings for different age groups, in a northwestern Ukrainian city. While the caregivers and director of this orphanage seem to be kindly and caring, this place has older buildings and inadequate funding. Many of the youngest children who live here look very pale in recent pictures, despite going outside to play each day during the summer and early fall - I suspect they may be anemic. Children with a variety of special needs live here, and I am still learning about conditions there. Bible Orphan Ministry visits this orphanage regularly and offers both enrichment activities and material assistance, such as clothing, fresh fruit in season, etc., which I am sure are greatly needed and appreciated.

Hope this helps answer your questions.

Last edited by CraigCreek; 09-25-2012 at 06:53 PM..
 
Old 09-25-2012, 06:48 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,274,401 times
Reputation: 48876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
Before you make any decisions, I sincerely hope that you ask the children if they WANT new names. They aren't infants -- these are children who were named by their birth parents and who have been using those names their entire lives. Taking those names away from them without their consent is a cruel thing to do .....
Of course I will! But I'm also not going to let them chose the Amercan name of their choice. A friend did this. They were anxious to pick American names but it kind of back fired.

I am hoping that this might lighten the mood a little. Honestly.

The thirteen year old chose Madonna, the nine year old, GaGa and the six year old Barbie

The girls saw these as normal names for American girls. They worked together on this and "Madonna" became Madelaine, "Ga Ga", Gabbriella and "Barbie" Brianna. Everyone was happy.

My friend asked if they wanted to keep their very ethnic middle names and the answer was a resounding "NO!" These were the names that Iryna, the birth mother screamed at them when she was drunk or before she beat them. The youngest had burns on her butt
from a gas stove. A "boy friend" did that.

Maddy chose the name of a Ukrainian pop star as her middle name, Ruslana. Gabby chose Larissa and little Brianna asked if she could use Mamma's name. My friend was so touched.
So Brianna Elisabeth she became.

The naming experience was bonding for this family.

It culminated with a Name Day where the family was blessed as a family at church with a party that followed.

Now the eldest is studying for her bacheklor's in Social Work. They are all doing well.

I had no intention to select a name and demand it. However for parents who think that a name inspires unity and is a loving gift, it is very important and significant. I wish that I could say that their history was isolated it is not.

Now the sisters laugh - especially about Ga-Ga!
 
Old 09-25-2012, 06:54 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,274,401 times
Reputation: 48876
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Susankate:

A "detsky dom" is the Russian language term used for an orphanage for children ages approximately four through seven. It translates as "children's home".

In Ukraine, Russia, and other countries which were once part of the former Soviet Union, there are "baby houses" for infants through age three or four (I can't remember the Russian words for "baby house", then detsky doms, then "internats", or "boarding school orphanages" for children ages seven or eight through sixteen or seventeen. Sometimes children who live nearby with their families also attend school in the internats, as day students.

Children with special needs usually are sent to baby houses, along with typical children, then may make it to the detsky dom if they are high-functioning and ambulatory and able to feed and dress themselves. Or they may be transferred to a mental institution at age four or five. Children with special needs who get to the detsky doms may be sent to the internat at age seven or eight, or once again, they may be transferred to the mental institution. They will remain there until they are 35, at which time they are moved once again, to a mental institution for "older" individuals. Usually such institutions are poorly funded, and often they are located in very isolated villages and rarely receive visitors.

Or they may be sent to a "specialized internat" at age seven or eight, such as one I know of in Ukraine which is labeled "for mental defectives". In reality, most of the children at this place are intellectually typical, but a few have mild physical special needs, such as cleft palates, mild CP, etc. Children are sometimes sent to such places simply because there is space there.

At this particular place, which is old, shabby and poorly funded but located in a village quite close to a major industrial city, children DO attend school, but lack adequate school books and other supplies. Caregivers are kindly, but supervision is lacking, especially at night and on weekends, leading to issues between the youngest, more vulnerable children and the older teens. The children get adequate amounts of food, but it's not the most nutritious, and many look pale. Clothing is old and mostly hand-me-downs and donations which are worn day after day. Dental care is non-existent, nor do children receive therapies or needed surgeries for things like the aforementioned CP or cleft palate. But this place is far from the worst...that role is reserved for the mental institutions.

There are some orphanages in Ukraine which are much better funded, and are more or less "showcase" orphanages for typical children. Usually such places are detsky doms, for children ages four through seven or eight. There are also a few decent orphanages for children with special needs, one for children ages seven through sixteen or so who have orthopedic issues. The handful of children who live here are well-treated and receive good educations - many are currently in various phases of adoption by Americans, as if they remain here, they, too will be sent to mental institutions upon "graduation", or be turned out onto their own resources in a few cases of less severely impacted children, a huge waste and tragedy. But at least they are well-cared for physically and medically while they are living in this internat, and benefit by receiving appropriate education.

I recently learned about another special-needs orphanage, this one for younger children through age sixteen, with separate buildings for different age groups, in a northwestern Ukrainian city. While the caregivers and director of this orphanage seem to be kindly and caring, this place has older buildings and inadequate funding. Many of the youngest children who live here look very pale in recent pictures, despite going outside to play each day during the summer and early fall - I suspect they may be anemic. Children with a variety of special needs live here, and I am still learning about conditions there. Bible Orphan Ministry visits this orphanage regularly and offers both enrichment activities and material assistance, such as clothing, fresh fruit in season, etc., which I am sure are greatly needed and appreciated.

Hope this helps answer your questions.
Craig - baby house - dom rebenka, home for older children before they are released - Iternat. Literally in between - in between have a home and not having a home. So so sad.

Craig, also, i am sorry that I seemed to bite you head off. I did not mean it in that way. I am frustrated and feeling under attack. Please forgive me.

Sheena

PS you need to write a book dude! Your posts are like reading assignments.

Also, it is important that everyone who might be critical of those of us who adopt from the former USSR that the standards decline.

I have been in baby houses and Ditsky Doms and they have been fine, I was in an Internat in Borzna that was frightening - cold, dirty and brutal.

Last edited by sheena12; 09-25-2012 at 07:04 PM..
 
Old 09-25-2012, 07:13 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,274,401 times
Reputation: 48876
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Susankate:

A "detsky dom" is the Russian language term used for an orphanage for children ages approximately four through seven. It translates as "children's home".

In Ukraine, Russia, and other countries which were once part of the former Soviet Union, there are "baby houses" for infants through age three or four (I can't remember the Russian words for "baby house", then detsky doms, then "internats", or "boarding school orphanages" for children ages seven or eight through sixteen or seventeen. Sometimes children who live nearby with their families also attend school in the internats, as day students.

Children with special needs usually are sent to baby houses, along with typical children, then may make it to the detsky dom if they are high-functioning and ambulatory and able to feed and dress themselves. Or they may be transferred to a mental institution at age four or five. Children with special needs who get to the detsky doms may be sent to the internat at age seven or eight, or once again, they may be transferred to the mental institution. They will remain there until they are 35, at which time they are moved once again, to a mental institution for "older" individuals. Usually such institutions are poorly funded, and often they are located in very isolated villages and rarely receive visitors.

Or they may be sent to a "specialized internat" at age seven or eight, such as one I know of in Ukraine which is labeled "for mental defectives". In reality, most of the children at this place are intellectually typical, but a few have mild physical special needs, such as cleft palates, mild CP, etc. Children are sometimes sent to such places simply because there is space there.

At this particular place, which is old, shabby and poorly funded but located in a village quite close to a major industrial city, children DO attend school, but lack adequate school books and other supplies. Caregivers are kindly, but supervision is lacking, especially at night and on weekends, leading to issues between the youngest, more vulnerable children and the older teens. The children get adequate amounts of food, but it's not the most nutritious, and many look pale. Clothing is old and mostly hand-me-downs and donations which are worn day after day. Dental care is non-existent, nor do children receive therapies or needed surgeries for things like the aforementioned CP or cleft palate. But this place is far from the worst...that role is reserved for the mental institutions.

There are some orphanages in Ukraine which are much better funded, and are more or less "showcase" orphanages for typical children. Usually such places are detsky doms, for children ages four through seven or eight. There are also a few decent orphanages for children with special needs, one for children ages seven through sixteen or so who have orthopedic issues. The comparative handful of children who live here are well-treated and receive good educations - many are currently in various phases of adoption by Americans, as if they remain here, they, too will be sent to mental institutions upon "graduation", or be turned out onto their own resources in a few cases of less severely impacted children, a huge waste and tragedy. But at least they are well-cared for physically and medically while they are living in this internat, and benefit by receiving appropriate education.

I recently learned about another special-needs orphanage, this one for younger children through age sixteen, with separate buildings for different age groups, in a northwestern Ukrainian city. While the caregivers and director of this orphanage seem to be kindly and caring, this place has older buildings and inadequate funding. Many of the youngest children who live here look very pale in recent pictures, despite going outside to play each day during the summer and early fall - I suspect they may be anemic. Children with a variety of special needs live here, and I am still learning about conditions there. Bible Orphan Ministry visits this orphanage regularly and offers both enrichment activities and material assistance, such as clothing, fresh fruit in season, etc., which I am sure are greatly needed and appreciated.

Hope this helps answer your questions.
Increasingly in cities where the kids can walk to school they are attending public school. This may sound good but it is an unpleasant experience for most.

They have the wrong clothes - often hand me downs from families who previously adopted. Their heads are shaved with every lice break out and the children are not clean. Try showering in a freezing cold orphanage in a frigid Ukrainian winter. They are told that they smell and that they are "the Garbage of Garbage." The teachers do not treat them well either.
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