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Old 10-01-2012, 08:09 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,863,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
We will bestow a name. As in give a gift, I do not dwell on my past. I have a sister who does. She is not the better for it.

I am planning for them as I would for children I have birthed. It is a re-birth in a sense for them. In a very big sense, Some things will be left behind. The name give by the birth woman will be number one.

Adoption is not babysitting or sharing kids. Many will not care and more will want it. I have found that adoptive children like to fit in.

Something is old is severed and something new is bound. That's it.

To argue this point to death seems silly and pointless, especially when thousands of children sit in orphanages each day with the dismal knowledge that if not adopted in 4 or 6 years they will be kicked to the curb. To worry collectively as many of you do about these children is pointless and strange.

Additionally, I have so many supporters as measured by rep comments on the changing a child's name thread that it seems others agree with me but refrain from posting for fear of reprisals.

Oh BTW No I'm not a Martyr mom and I have no problem stating that the adoption is not only a humanitarian effort, it's to grow OUR FAMILY.
I still would like to know when you plan to tell the children of your plans, a question you haven't yet answered. I do feel that they need to know upfront (i.e. during their host visit) what your plans are rather than be told just before adoption finalisation.

 
Old 10-01-2012, 08:15 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,635,238 times
Reputation: 12537
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
It sounds as though your dad did what he thought was right for your family and did it with conviction, Kids tend to feel secure when the people in charge of them are secure and do not apologize or ask permission.
I'm also lucky that even with its element of Russianness, my name blends in well with all my family names. My sister's and mother's names are both very common in Russia as well (they're names like Marina which can pass in a wide variety of cultures). Lol, with our names, we could sound like Egyptian family if we wanted.

I don't know if what you're saying is true or not. I just know that the name my parents gave me worked out for me. I can't speak for others or say that is true of all the decisions my parents made. My parents took the advice of the adoption agency they used, which was to shorten and Americanize my Russian name. I don't know if they would have done it differently had they adopted me at 6 or 9 or 12. My parents did ask me if I wanted to search for my biological parents and visit my orphanage and asked me to tell them when I was ready, so it's not like they made all the decisions with absolutely no consideration for my feelings. I think like all things in life, there is a balance between making decisions for a minor and letting them have some freedom of choice as well. Yes, often adults have to make decisions for children in the name of wisdom and protection, but children should also be given some element of choice IMO. Whether names is one of those things that should be left up to the children or decided by the parent is beyond me. I think that personally if I adopted an older child (and I do plan on it someday) I would at least want some input from my child, even if I made the final decision. Then again, I am that way about a lot of things with the kids I often take care of. I just notice that, at least with them, things run smoother when I give them some element of choice. They tend to feel stifled if they're not given any choice, and personally that's often how I felt growing up when I wasn't given any choices at all. That's just my personal opinion, though, and everyone does everything differently. I know that some parents like to be more authoritative and some kids respond better to being told what will happen with no freedom of choice.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 08:27 AM
 
203 posts, read 200,517 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I am planning for them as I would for children I have birthed. It is a re-birth in a sense for them. In a very big sense, Some things will be left behind. The name give by the birth woman will be number one.
Except, of course, you will have not birthed these children. They have already been birthed and named. It is not a re-birth for them. Adoption is a continuation of a narrative that is already in progress for them. Renaming them or expecting them to leave some things behind does not delete or wipe out the fact that those things existed.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 10:31 AM
 
1,458 posts, read 2,226,341 times
Reputation: 3108
This is going nowhere.

There really aren't many times when people change their minds about something sensitive and emotional. Generally, you can only reach someone if

1) they are neutral to begin with, with no personal stake, or

2) you can make them feel what your words cannot convey

If even one person posted here who was adopted as an older child to say that they were glad their name was changed, I would willingly change my view.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 11:26 AM
 
13 posts, read 9,263 times
Reputation: 23
Way to say it, threefold and gcm!! I'm right behind you. I will most definitely be changing mine, especially since I answered to it for a year, and my natural family have always called me by it.

In fact, I feel so strongly about this that even if it happened to cost as much as adoption itself to do it, it STILL wouldn't stop me! Where there's a will, there's a way... adoption "fundraising" has proven that....


Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Something is old is severed and something new is bound. That's it.
Nope. Truth never gets old.


So totally shocked at this mentality... people are not possessions!

Adopted or not. It would be just as damaging for a natural family to change a child's name halfway through childhood because they decided they didn't like it.

When my child was born, some felt the name I had chosen was too "mature". But logically speaking, since we spend most of our lives as adults, we "grow into" those names. Some names would have sounded silly on a 40 to 80 year old. My kids love their names.

The tendency is to see them as babies well past the baby stage.


Just keepin' it real.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 11:55 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,906 posts, read 36,355,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MayTreeArk View Post
So totally shocked at this mentality... people are not possessions!

Adopted or not. It would be just as damaging for a natural family to change a child's name halfway through childhood because they decided they didn't like it.
I agree that people are not possessions, but you're attacking a strawman. Nobody on the thread has said that children are possessions.

My husband's cousins were renamed when they were six and eight by their mother. One day they were "Melissa" and "Nancy," and the next day they were "Bethany" and "Yvette," and they have been Bethany and Yvette ever since. They weren't adopted, it was out of the blue. I don't think it was damaging in that case, just odd. My husband was pretty close to that cousin when they were younger, and he says she doesn't seem to have any attachment to her first name or sadness about it.

So while technically I agree with your statement that
Quote:
It would be just as damaging for a natural family to change a child's name halfway through childhood because they decided they didn't like it
"just as damaging" can mean "just as non-damaging." You seem to be saying that changing a child's name is always damaging, and I don't think that's true. At least not if you are saying that non-adopted children are always harmed when their names are arbitrarily changed.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 12:16 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,153,140 times
Reputation: 18796
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
I agree that people are not possessions, but you're attacking a strawman. Nobody on the thread has said that children are possessions.

My husband's cousins were renamed when they were six and eight by their mother. One day they were "Melissa" and "Nancy," and the next day they were "Bethany" and "Yvette," and they have been Bethany and Yvette ever since. They weren't adopted, it was out of the blue. I don't think it was damaging in that case, just odd. My husband was pretty close to that cousin when they were younger, and he says she doesn't seem to have any attachment to her first name or sadness about it.

So while technically I agree with your statement that

"just as damaging" can mean "just as non-damaging." You seem to be saying that changing a child's name is always damaging, and I don't think that's true. At least not if you are saying that non-adopted children are always harmed when their names are arbitrarily changed.
When the cousins were renamed, were they also taken from their homes and put with new families? That's the difference. With adoption, you not only lose your name, you lose everything else along with it. The name might well be the only connection the child has to his/her pre-adoption life and to take that away -- without the child's consent -- is cruel.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,906 posts, read 36,355,510 times
Reputation: 42509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
When the cousins were renamed, were they also taken from their homes and put with new families? That's the difference. With adoption, you not only lose your name, you lose everything else along with it. The name might well be the only connection the child has to his/her pre-adoption life and to take that away -- without the child's consent -- is cruel.
No, same mother. I don't know the reasons behind it; the cousins are our age so this was 30+ years ago. I put caveats on my statement:

You seem to be saying that changing a child's name is always damaging, and I don't think that's true. At least not if you are saying that non-adopted children are always harmed when their names are arbitrarily changed.

Teenaged orphans in the Ukraine are turned out of doors when they come of age, frequently becoming homeless and turning to crime and prostitution. I really can't guess what a young man or woman in that situation would want or not want. A name may be a connection to a past that is wanted or unwanted. I agree that an older child should be able to consent to a name, but then again would many people agree if my 15-year-old told me she now wanted to be named Lucretia von Lollipop? Would anyone tell me that it's her name and her choice? Probably not. But I think we're back to apples and oranges, because adoption does complicate the question.
 
Old 10-01-2012, 01:26 PM
 
203 posts, read 200,517 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
With adoption, you not only lose your name, you lose everything else along with it. The name might well be the only connection the child has to his/her pre-adoption life and to take that away -- without the child's consent -- is cruel.
It interests me that for some, this concept is one to be ignored or disregarded. I suppose that as an adoptee who lost my name, my "birth woman," my "birth man," and access to my true identity during the nonverbal stage of my life, I simply find it easier than some to step into the shoes of an older child facing the same sort of transition. Placing the condition of a mandatory name change on an older child who already has a name--one that might be meaningful to him or her--seems counter intuitive to the child's best interests.

My adoptive mother and her sister both had the same medical condition which resulted in infertility. Neither one has ever been pregnant. My aunt and uncle adopted two kids. My cousins were older at the times of the adoptions, ages 6- and 9-years. My aunt and uncle never considered changing their first names. They viewed adoption as a continuation of their lives, not some sort of clean break that rendered their pre-adoptive life nonexistent. My aunt and uncle allowed their own views on family to bend and flex in order to meet the needs of my cousins. My cousins were simply accepted for who they were without the expectation that they had to change their first names in order to fit in to the family.

Last edited by gcm7189; 10-01-2012 at 01:56 PM..
 
Old 10-01-2012, 01:28 PM
 
13 posts, read 9,263 times
Reputation: 23
Dear Julia:

Thank you for pointing out I was overgeneralizing. Sorry I neglected use a "c" instead of a "w" in the "ould". Must make sure to cross all my t's and dot all my i's around here. The strawman has left the building and only Dorothy remains.


As someone who has seen first-hand the damage this "can" (has) caused in a non-adoptive family, what is damaging about it is that it poked holes in "this particular" child's sense of self (identity) and eroded their self-esteem, got them teased at school, etc. and as silly as it may sound, it was real, for them.

And, while it may be also true that it's not damaging in all cases, particularly if the child welcomes it, who's to say. And who's to say it won't bother them later in life? We react differently to things as adults than when we are children.

So, all I was trying to illustrate was, if a non-adopted child can have issues about this, how much more adopted children, who in fact were someone else previously- this is a fact. Life does not begin at adoption.

My point really, was simply that anything pertaining to your identity, which in fact, could mean not only names, but anything you are that is "forbidden" or "discouraged", it is damaging.

Like, if you are a painter, but your parents don't want the mess around. You are a guitarist but they don't want the noise in the house. These are all things that wound us and make us (to us) less than we would/could have been. Identity is core, whether we're talking about names, traits, likes and dislikes. We need to let kids flourish and be who they were meant to be, not who we would make them. And I find more often than not, someone is always attempting to squeeze kids into a mold they don't fit. Don't get me wrong. Every parent has dreams for their child. But forcing them to be something they're not isn't right.

As for the other part, while no one has actually come out and said that "people are possessions" I "could" point to more than a few posts where that sentiment shines through as clear as crystal.

Protective, yes... parents should be protective. But "possessive"? Does no one else believe that our children, adopted or not, are only lent to us... I hear adoptive parents everywhere, "mine, mine, mine." I don't generally hear that from natural parents. Why is that? I'm trying to understand. Can you enlighten me?

But enough, forgive me, this thread is on the subject of names. Perhaps I'll find those answers on another thread.
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