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Old 10-05-2012, 06:09 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 987,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
So how can you ultimately be sure that say, for example, your biological father's interest in journalism and your interest in journalism are strictly a result of genetics, and not also at least part coincidence? I really feel that people look for parallels where they want to see them, because I can find tons of parallels between myself and many people I know, none of whom are genetically related to me.
Have you ever seen research on twin studies & personalities? Obviously you will find strangers who have common interests & obviously you will have differences amongst bio-family, but you really can't deny there are genetic predispositions when twins/family members being raised apart with such different backgrounds end up having so much in common. Just like the statistics are hard to deny with homosexual siblings, the statistics are hard to deny with things like similar levels of religiosity, talents, likes, dislikes, mannerisms, etc.

Perhaps you want to look for parallels where you want to see them (anywhere but bio family), too?

 
Old 10-05-2012, 06:24 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,864,042 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
Where is anyone completely denying genetics? I've seen a few people completely deny conditioning, but I haven't seen anyone completely deny genetics.

I know that I have a very language-oriented mind. I did translation for 8 years and am studying to be an interpreter. Neither my parents nor my sister are like that. That said, I've met people who are also very language-oriented who aren't genetically related to me. One of my best friends and I have 6 languages in common. We have no genetic relation at all. So how can you ultimately be sure that say, for example, your biological father's interest in journalism and your interest in journalism are strictly a result of genetics, and not also at least part coincidence? I really feel that people look for parallels where they want to see them, because I can find tons of parallels between myself and many people I know, none of whom are genetically related to me. For example, my dad's S.O. and her daughter and I are all frighteningly similar in personality and likes. We are all very musical and language-oriented. We value creativity and beauty. Unless I'm Black and don't know it, we're definitely not related genetically, lol. Now if we happened to be biologically related, I'd probably be chocking it all up to our genes when in fact the parallels are all there without the genetic connection. I know that genetics play a part in personality traits and so on, but I just think that people tend to force similarities that aren't always there.
We are always going to meet people that share our interests, and even more likely we will enjoy hanging around with those people, that is life. However, just because one shares interests with non-related people, it doesn't mean that one's interests that one shares with one's biological relations ISN'T inherited.

I also have seen no-one completely deny conditioning - I think most of us seem to be saying we are a result of nature and nuture/environment. I've been on other combined adoption boards where every single adoptee made it quite clear that they felt they were a result of nature AND nurture/environment but where quite a few other commenters, mainly adoptive parents, denied the nature altogether.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 07:03 AM
 
393 posts, read 505,100 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
Have you ever seen research on twin studies & personalities? Obviously you will find strangers who have common interests & obviously you will have differences amongst bio-family, but you really can't deny there are genetic predispositions when twins/family members being raised apart with such different backgrounds end up having so much in common. Just like the statistics are hard to deny with homosexual siblings, the statistics are hard to deny with things like similar levels of religiosity, talents, likes, dislikes, mannerisms, etc.

Perhaps you want to look for parallels where you want to see them (anywhere but bio family), too?
As I am sure everyone knows there was an agency that decided to separate twins (fraternal or identical) and place them in different homes that agreed to be interviewed over the years for a made up study so that they did not have to tell either family that child was a twin. You can guess that when it was revealed it wasn't received well and in fact the research has been sealed away for a set number of years because it really was unethical behavior to the extreme - creating human research subjects deliberately and children at that...

Anyways...there are some amazing results of voluntary studies of twins as adults and the agency above is not the only agency that didn't see a problem with separating twins, so there are many who were never told.

Twins - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine - intriguing article on studies of twins - scroll down to the Jim Twins where the article really gets interesting.

Is Genetics or the Environment Most Important in Determining Who Our Kids Will Be?

The above is an audio interview of professionals - one from the Colorado Adoption Project and another from the Michigan State University Twin Research. Very interesting results.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 08:09 AM
 
39 posts, read 25,321 times
Reputation: 39
Nim, I was responding to Craig's comment that is no big deal either way - as I said, easy to say when you can look at your uncle growing up & know where you got your nose & singing voice from. I didn't mean that he was saying genetics aren't important, he was saying that caring where you got certain traits from isn't important.

And I see what you are saying about people not related to you having the same talents, which of course is true but that is only because there is a finite number of human abilities & like minded & talented people tend to flock together. You would probably find that in your non-adopted friends' families, several people share personality & physical traits. I agree that we are the sum of our parts, our DNA & our environment, but I believe that DNA determines what we are predisposed to do, what our brain is wired for, & all the nurture in the world is not going to make a good economics teacher out of a person with musical genius.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 08:24 AM
 
203 posts, read 200,532 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by keribus72 View Post
I agree that we are the sum of our parts, our DNA & our environment, but I believe that DNA determines what we are predisposed to do, what our brain is wired for, & all the nurture in the world is not going to make a good economics teacher out of a person with musical genius.
I also agree. You certainly would never want me performing brain surgery on you (Ooops! Butterfingers!) but I could definitely write a great profile about the doctor who does. This is why I reclaimed my original surname. My inherent talents and skills are rooted in my ancestry. Just trying to bring the discussion back to names.

Last edited by gcm7189; 10-05-2012 at 08:45 AM..
 
Old 10-05-2012, 10:11 AM
 
10,511 posts, read 8,444,104 times
Reputation: 19262
Okay, responding to a couple of other posters: Keribus first, then susankate

Keribus, when I used the term "it's no big deal", I was referring to my young relatives' extended and immediate adoptive family's love for them. It's really not a big deal that they can't carry a tune! Obviously, they will have some differences from other family members - ability to carry a tune probably is a genetic thing. Love of books and reading? A bit harder to discern. We're all glad they are readers (one reads more than the other, but both enjoy books), and we've done a lot to foster that desirable trait. But if they were not readers, were dyslexic or just didn't like books very much, we'd regret it, but not love them a whit the less.

Obviously, one's biological heritage is something important to each individual, and that's natural and normal and as it should be. I've stated elsewhere in this forum that I believe as complete knowledge as possible of an adopted individual's medical and health heritage should be make known to them (to their adoptive parents initially, then at maturity or before, to the individual). Personally, I'd also recommend sharing information about known family traits: father was an artist, mother played the cello, grandma loved to garden, etc. And less pleasant information should also be provided: mother had mental issues, father deserted the family, grandpa hit the bottle...if it is relevent to the child. And almost all of it is.

Hope I've clarified things.

susankate, my young relatives who were adopted internationally had a very dysfunctional and neglectful parental background, although they were blessed with another biological family member who cared for them until serious ill health made it impossible. At present, they do remember that person quite fondly, but I think the relative is now deceased. They do not have fond memories of their parents. I hope that if this person is still living, that they know the children are together, happy, healthy and are much-loved. This individual did not show up to contest the children's adoptions during the mandatory waiting period after court, nor did they ever visit or contact the children during their years of living in the orphanages.

I doubt very much if they'd want to reconnect with other family members, although I think the younger relative does want to return to their native country someday for a visit. This relative speaks fondly of some of the recollections and takes obvious pride in their native land.

Neither child has ever mentioned their biological family to me, and as it's their business, I will not ask. If they do want to talk about it, of course I am open to hearing whatever they want to tell me. I would also try to gently refer them to their (adoptive) parents, unless they felt they could not speak to them for some reason or another. As they are quite close to their parents, I don't foresee this happening.

Their adoptive parents loved their children's native country and saw a good deal of it and have said they'd like to go back and see more, so I hope this will happen. Their parents have also included as much of their children's native country's customs and culture in their lives as possible: studying their native language, reading folktales and history of their native country, wearing traditional festival attire on holidays, learning to cook native dishes, hanging the country's flag in the playroom, displaying various decorative items, and so on. They've also met with other children who were adopted from their native country and have attended an annual picnic for families with children from this part of the world.

Theirs is a dual heritage, and I think their parents are honoring that in every way possible.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 11:17 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,269,288 times
Reputation: 48876
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Okay, responding to a couple of other posters: Keribus first, then susankate

Keribus, when I used the term "it's no big deal", I was referring to my young relatives' extended and immediate adoptive family's love for them. It's really not a big deal that they can't carry a tune! Obviously, they will have some differences from other family members - ability to carry a tune probably is a genetic thing. Love of books and reading? A bit harder to discern. We're all glad they are readers (one reads more than the other, but both enjoy books), and we've done a lot to foster that desirable trait. But if they were not readers, were dyslexic or just didn't like books very much, we'd regret it, but not love them a whit the less.

Obviously, one's biological heritage is something important to each individual, and that's natural and normal and as it should be. I've stated elsewhere in this forum that I believe as complete knowledge as possible of an adopted individual's medical and health heritage should be make known to them (to their adoptive parents initially, then at maturity or before, to the individual). Personally, I'd also recommend sharing information about known family traits: father was an artist, mother played the cello, grandma loved to garden, etc. And less pleasant information should also be provided: mother had mental issues, father deserted the family, grandpa hit the bottle...if it is relevent to the child. And almost all of it is.

Hope I've clarified things.

susankate, my young relatives who were adopted internationally had a very dysfunctional and neglectful parental background, although they were blessed with another biological family member who cared for them until serious ill health made it impossible. At present, they do remember that person quite fondly, but I think the relative is now deceased. They do not have fond memories of their parents. I hope that if this person is still living, that they know the children are together, happy, healthy and are much-loved. This individual did not show up to contest the children's adoptions during the mandatory waiting period after court, nor did they ever visit or contact the children during their years of living in the orphanages.

I doubt very much if they'd want to reconnect with other family members, although I think the younger relative does want to return to their native country someday for a visit. This relative speaks fondly of some of the recollections and takes obvious pride in their native land.

Neither child has ever mentioned their biological family to me, and as it's their business, I will not ask. If they do want to talk about it, of course I am open to hearing whatever they want to tell me. I would also try to gently refer them to their (adoptive) parents, unless they felt they could not speak to them for some reason or another. As they are quite close to their parents, I don't foresee this happening.

Their adoptive parents loved their children's native country and saw a good deal of it and have said they'd like to go back and see more, so I hope this will happen. Their parents have also included as much of their children's native country's customs and culture in their lives as possible: studying their native language, reading folktales and history of their native country, wearing traditional festival attire on holidays, learning to cook native dishes, hanging the country's flag in the playroom, displaying various decorative items, and so on. They've also met with other children who were adopted from their native country and have attended an annual picnic for families with children from this part of the world.

Theirs is a dual heritage, and I think their parents are honoring that in every way possible.

A lot of those heritage oriented things - food clothes and customs are interesting to school age an younger children. Visiting the country is another matter and some kids are more interested than others. Visiting areas with many imigrant from that country is another way to make the connection,

When children are adopted at a later age, there is often len interest because there is losss mystery. My daughter's interest thus far was in reading a document that described the conditions and situation surrounding her birth. That was very satisfying to her.

She has now become disinterested in her birth country and does not wish to visit.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 12:10 PM
 
95 posts, read 62,437 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Okay, responding to a couple of other posters: Keribus first, then susankate

Keribus, when I used the term "it's no big deal", I was referring to my young relatives' extended and immediate adoptive family's love for them. It's really not a big deal that they can't carry a tune! Obviously, they will have some differences from other family members - ability to carry a tune probably is a genetic thing. Love of books and reading? A bit harder to discern. We're all glad they are readers (one reads more than the other, but both enjoy books), and we've done a lot to foster that desirable trait. But if they were not readers, were dyslexic or just didn't like books very much, we'd regret it, but not love them a whit the less.

Obviously, one's biological heritage is something important to each individual, and that's natural and normal and as it should be. I've stated elsewhere in this forum that I believe as complete knowledge as possible of an adopted individual's medical and health heritage should be make known to them (to their adoptive parents initially, then at maturity or before, to the individual). Personally, I'd also recommend sharing information about known family traits: father was an artist, mother played the cello, grandma loved to garden, etc. And less pleasant information should also be provided: mother had mental issues, father deserted the family, grandpa hit the bottle...if it is relevent to the child. And almost all of it is.

Hope I've clarified things.

susankate, my young relatives who were adopted internationally had a very dysfunctional and neglectful parental background, although they were blessed with another biological family member who cared for them until serious ill health made it impossible. At present, they do remember that person quite fondly, but I think the relative is now deceased. They do not have fond memories of their parents. I hope that if this person is still living, that they know the children are together, happy, healthy and are much-loved. This individual did not show up to contest the children's adoptions during the mandatory waiting period after court, nor did they ever visit or contact the children during their years of living in the orphanages.

I doubt very much if they'd want to reconnect with other family members, although I think the younger relative does want to return to their native country someday for a visit. This relative speaks fondly of some of the recollections and takes obvious pride in their native land.

Neither child has ever mentioned their biological family to me, and as it's their business, I will not ask. If they do want to talk about it, of course I am open to hearing whatever they want to tell me. I would also try to gently refer them to their (adoptive) parents, unless they felt they could not speak to them for some reason or another. As they are quite close to their parents, I don't foresee this happening.

Their adoptive parents loved their children's native country and saw a good deal of it and have said they'd like to go back and see more, so I hope this will happen. Their parents have also included as much of their children's native country's customs and culture in their lives as possible: studying their native language, reading folktales and history of their native country, wearing traditional festival attire on holidays, learning to cook native dishes, hanging the country's flag in the playroom, displaying various decorative items, and so on. They've also met with other children who were adopted from their native country and have attended an annual picnic for families with children from this part of the world.

Theirs is a dual heritage, and I think their parents are honoring that in every way possible.
Craig, I am glad that these parents honor the dual heritage. It may seem unimportant and they may even show disinterest or even repulsion when they are children and teens. Children however become adults and questions about history, heritage, and biology become very important. If nothing else, I think this forum has shown how important these issues really are to everyone in the triad and even those who are not.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 04:00 PM
 
39 posts, read 25,321 times
Reputation: 39
Craig, I was referring to this part of your post, not the part about it not mattering if the adoptees can carry a tune. You are saying biological similarities & differences don't matter to you - fine. That's easy to say when you haven't grown up without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
To me, it really isn't that big a deal...Yes, it's interesting to see family traits of various kinds passed along the generations, but it's also interesting to observe differences in biologically related family members, and to sometimes wonder, "Now, where did THAT come from??" about something or another that seems to be unique to an individual.
Don't try & make out like I am misquoting you, just own what you said for a change. It's no big deal that you feel that way - most people raised with biological family take it for granted.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 04:42 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,269,288 times
Reputation: 48876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marymarym View Post
Craig, I am glad that these parents honor the dual heritage. It may seem unimportant and they may even show disinterest or even repulsion when they are children and teens. Children however become adults and questions about history, heritage, and biology become very important. If nothing else, I think this forum has shown how important these issues really are to everyone in the triad and even those who are not.
For some children they can become important, for others, not as much.

My daughter has no interest in attending a famous Korean Culture Camp in Colorado. We have offered this to her repeatedly and she became angry with us. I can't shove Korea or Korean culture down her throat.
She is a 16 year old girl with a rather strong personality.

She has a rather good point though. We do hot force our son to attend Scandinavian, English, Irish or German or Polish heritage camps. In fact, his only interest in visiting Germany is to visit Dachau because of his abject hatred for Nazis and interest in World War II.

We are not a very ethnic family.When we travel, we do not do so for ethnic motivations, we go to places that interest us.

Our daughter feels connected to France because she is fluent in French.She also has an interest in visiting Australia and New Zealand.

On our next trip to NY City we are taking her to a Vegan Korean restaurant that I found out about, I'd like her to meet other Koreans who care about animals as she does.

As far as relatives, she is legally adopted and she has no interest in searching people out.She loves her family and she's happy and well adjusted.
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