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Old 09-15-2012, 10:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykee View Post
I am not obsessed with the "genetic model" of motgher and father. There is no such thing as "model" in this context. This is not some kind of devlepmental "model" of say, therapy, or, scientific hypothesis. These are facts I am dealing with. It is you who are making this out to be more complicated than it is.

I understand perfectly your description of other uses of the terms "mother" and "father", as terms of endearment. Perfectly fine to do so. What I am pointing out is that in adoption, fromwhat I see here, and in real life discussions with adoptive parents, there is the sense that the adoptee's other set of parents do not exist because the adoptive parents don't want them to exist. I know how relationshikps are built by adoption and I cherish the childhood memories with the cousins I was raised with -- and so do they. We have tears inour eyes now because our parents have passed on and we have each other in adulthood with shared childhood experiences. While I faced harassment form any relatives, there were some relatives who did not treat me poorly, and these are aunts, uncles cousins both from adoptive family and natural family. One cousin is divorced and has a girlfriend for over 16 years. He said to me recently, "You know Ma died, right?" He then explained that the mother of his children was killed in a car crash and I didn't know when it happened. Here, a divorced man still lovingly referred to his deceased ex-wife as "Ma". He was crying as he told me this. So, yes, I understand terms of endearment.

When I say that Sheena's daughter may feel diferently when she is pregnant herself I am speaking about the very real developmental changes that occur in adoptees when they have children. They wake up to see life differently and begin to see the advancement of life through the wonders of pregnancy and birth. To see a child look like you when the family you were raised with does not look like you can be a very emotional experience for an adoptee. Even male adoptees are moved emotionally when they have children.

Again, please read books by David Brodzinsky on the life development of adoptees: The Psycholgy of Adoption, and, Being Adopted: The Lifelong Search for Self.

Please read Nancy Verrier's books: The Primal Wound, and, The Adopted Chid Grows Up: Coming Home to Self.

Here are more books that will help you and other adoptive parents and their adoptees:

Adoption and the family System, by Miriam Reitz and Kenneth W Watson.

Journey of the Adopted Self, by Betty Jean Lifton.

I'm Still Me by Betty Jean Lifton.

Lost and Found by Betty Jean Lifton.

Twice Born by Betty Jean Lifton.

Adoptees Come of Age, by Ron Nydam.

Shared Fate. Adoptive Kinship. Exploring Adoptive Family Life. All three by H. David Kirk.

Adoption and Recovery. Adoption and Loss. Both by Evelyn Burns Robinson.

Death by Adoption by Joss Shawyer.

Handbook of Adoption: Implications for Researchers, Practioners, and Families, by Rafael A. Javier, Amanda L Baden, Frank A Biafora, and Alina Camacho-Gingerich.

The Adoption Life Cycle by Elinor B Rosenberg.

Family Matters: Secrecy and Disclosure in the History of Adoption, by E. Wayne Carp.

Clinical Practice in Adoption, by Robin C. Winkler, Dirck W. Brown, Margaret van Keppel, Amy Blanchard.

Birthmark by Lorraine Dusky. (firstmotherforum website mentioned earlier in this thread)

Shedding Light on The Dark Side of Adoption, by Mirah Riben.

The Stork Market: America's Multi-Billion Dollar Unregulated Adoption Industry by Mirah Riben, Jena M. Gaines and Evelyn Robinson.

I Would Have Searched Forever. What Kind of Love is This?. To Prisoon With Love: The True Story of an Indecent Indictment and America's Adoption Travesty. All three books by Sandy Musser.

The Adoption Triangle: Sealed or Opened Records: How They Affected Adoptees, Birthparents, and Adoptive Parents, by Arthur D. Sorosky, Annette Baran, Reuben Pannor.

Lethal Secrets: The Shocking Consequences and Unsolved Problems of Artificial Insemination: parents, children, donors, and experts speak out, by Annette Baran and Reuban Pannor.

Musings of a Ghost Mother, by Lynn Reyman, Ph.D.

In Search of Origins: The Experince odf Adopted People by John Triseliotis.

Outer Search Inner Journey: An Orphan and Adoptee's Quest by Peter F Dodds.

The Adoption Mystique: A hard-Hitting Expose of the Powerful Negative Social Stigma the Permiates Child Adoption in the United States by Joanne Wolf Small, MSW.

The Baby Thief: The Untold Story of Georgia Tann, the baby Seller Who Corrupted Adoption, by Barbara Bisantz Raymond.

Growing in the Dark: Adoption Secrecy and its Consequences by Janine M Baer.

"The Idea of Adoption: An Inquiry into the History of Adult Adoptee Acccess to Birth Records" by Elizabeth J Samuels, published by Rutgers Law Review, Vol 53, Winter 2001, Number 2.

Twenty Life Transforming Choices Adoptees Need to Make, by Sherrie Eldridge.

Faint Trails: AGuide to Adult Adoptee-Birth Parent Reunification Searches, by Hal Aigner.

Adoption Healing...A Path to Recovery by Joe Soll, LCSW.

Adoptee Trauma. Birth Mother Trauma. both books by Heather Carlini, certified clinical hypnotherapist.

The Family of Adoption, by Joyce Maguire Pavao.

Confessions of a Lost Mother by Elisa Barton.

The Search For Anna Fisher by Florence Fisher.

Orphan Voyage by Ruthena Hill Kitson.

The Adopted Break Silence by Jean Paton.

The Adoption Reunion Survival Guide: Preparing Yourself for the Serach, Reunion, and Beyond, by Julie Jarrell Bailey and Lynn N Giddens, MA.

Helping Children Cope With Separation and Loss by Claudia L Jewett.

Adopting the Older Child by Claudia L Jewett.

Second Choice: Growing Up Adopted by Robert Andersen, M.D.

Adoption Nation: How the Adoption Revolution is Transforming America by Adam Pertman.

The Other Mother by Carol Schaefer.

Wake Up Little Suzie: Single Pregnancy and Race Before Roe Vs Wade, by Rickie Solinger.

Babies Without Borders: Adoption and Migration Across the Americas, by Karen Dubinsky.

Soul Connection: A Memoir of a Birthmother's Healing Journey,, by Ann H Hughes.
That's a ton of books you listed. Do you know if any of them come in audio or braille?
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:02 PM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,597,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykee View Post
I second that!

For some reason, it is assumed that when an adoptee wants to have access to the true birth certificate, or wants to search, or wants to have a reunion, or wants to have a long-term relationship with natural parents, that that means there is no love between adoptee and adoptive parents.

For the majority, yes, there is love.

For many, no there is not.

I know of many adoptees who were rapred by peodophile adoptive fathers and brothers and uncles.

These adoptees do not feel love to those adoptive fathers or brothers or uncles and it is obvious that they did not feel love toward the adoptee.
That's really sad. That just breaks my heart to hear. Obviously I can understand why they wouldn't love or feel connected to their adoptive parent in that case.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Out West
22,590 posts, read 16,725,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
I'm so sorry for whatever he did to you & your experience, but you misunderstood what I was asking... I was not saying that you should refer to your personal family any which way other than how you wish to. If you don't consider someone genetically related to you as family, that is 100% up to you.

We agree on this, yes?

I am not asking if you have a problem claiming your biological family as family at all, but if you see the problem with referring to OTHER adoptee's family (in general) as non-family, or donors, etc. Do you understand what I am asking now, or am I not clarifying this well enough?

Sorry for the confusion if it is getting lost in translation...
Yes, I did misunderstand what you were saying.

If a "child" wants to call their bio parents their parents, that is their right and people should respect that.

If a "child" wants to call their bio parents by their first name or "sperm donor" or "aholes" or whatever, that is their right and it should be respected.

It is up to the "child" what they want to call those people...if they are reunited and find love, that's fantastic. If they don't, it's ok, too. They learn to deal and move on, however long it takes.

Yes, it is up to the adopted "child" to determine and other people in society can butt out if they don't like it. Tough. It's not their experience, it's not their life, it's not their damn business.

If someone gets upset with me because I do NOT see sperm donor as anything but, that is their issue to work through. No one will force me or sway me to ever call him anything different. Too bad if they don't like it.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Out West
22,590 posts, read 16,725,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykee View Post
Well, that is your opinion.

However, biology is very important. It is our health. It is how we think, how our brains are wired, how we develope and how our bodies function.

How you feel about your biology dismisses the point that biology is very important in life itself.

What a person eats or drinks, or smokes, or breaths, affects them. A smoker is not taking care of his body. A child may develop medical problems from drinking water with toxins.

What a person looks like is their biology. Future children and grandchildren of adoptees who have no connection with their natural family may want a connection with that biology you don't find important.
I agree with this simply because I believe biology is important...to ME. I wanted to know what I looked like, where I came from, what was my heritage, any health issues I should know about, etc.

But we must also accept that some people really do NOT feel the need to know these things and that is ok. Just as we wish to be accepted and respected for what we call our biological parents, we must also accept and respect that not all adoptees have a desire to know anything about their birth parents. That is just fact, not all of them do. That is ok because that is up to the adopted child, not you, not me, not anyone else.
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Old 09-16-2012, 02:51 AM
 
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My policy is that as long as the adoptee feels comfortable to feel what they feel, whether it is curiosity or lack of curiosity, then that is OK.

I do know adoptees IRL and online who have said that their APs made their children feel like they were betraying them when the adoptees told them about their plans to locate APs. Other APs have said to their children "If you love me, you wouldn't want to look". I am sure you will agree that that isn't fair on the adoptee.

That's not to say I would agree with an AP pushing their child to look, either. As has been pointed again and again on this forum, it is the adoptees right. Deciding to find/meet bfamily is a very hard thing and should never be undertaken lightly so I can totally understand an adoptee not wanting to search and no-one should ever push them to do so.

Last edited by JustJulia; 09-16-2012 at 07:11 AM.. Reason: removed reference to deleted comment
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:27 AM
 
1,024 posts, read 984,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
Yes, I did misunderstand what you were saying.

If a "child" wants to call their bio parents their parents, that is their right and people should respect that.

If a "child" wants to call their bio parents by their first name or "sperm donor" or "aholes" or whatever, that is their right and it should be respected.

It is up to the "child" what they want to call those people...if they are reunited and find love, that's fantastic. If they don't, it's ok, too. They learn to deal and move on, however long it takes.

Yes, it is up to the adopted "child" to determine and other people in society can butt out if they don't like it. Tough. It's not their experience, it's not their life, it's not their damn business.

If someone gets upset with me because I do NOT see sperm donor as anything but, that is their issue to work through. No one will force me or sway me to ever call him anything different. Too bad if they don't like it.

Okay, we are getting closer but you are still misunderstanding me. If you don't mind sticking with me on this one I will try to clarify further:

No one, not me, not Kay, not anyone is saying that any adoptee should refer to their family any way other than how THEY choose.

When I ask do you see the problem in referring to other adoptee's families in general terms as sperm/egg donors, non family, etc, I mean people coming to public spaces & discussing "birthfamilies" in GENERAL. Or the importance of biology in general.

You see how this is different from an adoptee saying, "Yes, adoptees are born from another family & raised by another, but I personally do not consider my biological family family." And then someone else saying, "Adoptees have one family, the one who raised them." Or "Genetics are nothing, blood/ancestry is not important," or "birthfathers are nothing but sperm donors," or things of the like?

Because that is the type of demeaning dialogue we object to, not adoptees personally identifying family, but people painting adoptees family in a general, negative way.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:58 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,131,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
Do I see a problem with it? When it comes to claiming them, the bio "parents" as my family, yah, I have an issue with that. They are NOT my parents. They did not raise me, they made that choice to RELINQUISH their rights to be called my parents. They signed papers. Those rights are GONE.

My siblings, extended family: They didn't get those rights. They are still my family even if I don't know them very well but I don't view it as two separate families. I just have a whole lot of relatives.

As for the sperm donor...if you had a clue what that bastard did to me, he almost KILLED me, thethreefoldme...he does NOT get any other name than sperm donor. I don't really care if anyone "gets" that or not. If someone else wants to call theirs a "sperm donor" that is their right.

P.S. I have to go to work now but I'll be back later to continue the discussion.
I am so so very sorry, Three Wolves. The very thought of this makes me furious.Sperm doner is mild compared to what I'd call him.
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Old 09-16-2012, 07:42 AM
 
1,024 posts, read 984,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
My policy is that as long as the adoptee feels comfortable to feel what they feel, whether it is curiosity or lack of curiosity, then that is OK.

I do know adoptees IRL and online who have said that their APs made their children feel like they were betraying them when the adoptees told them about their plans to locate APs. Other APs have said to their children "If you love me, you wouldn't want to look". I am sure you will agree that that isn't fair on the adoptee.

That's not to say I would agree with an AP pushing their child to look, either. As has been pointed again and again on this forum, it is the adoptees right. Deciding to find/meet bfamily is a very hard thing and should never be undertaken lightly so I can totally understand an adoptee not wanting to search and no-one should ever push them to do so.
I agree with this completely, it is very important for all adoptive parents to help their children feel that curiosity is okay, normal, natural, but also support them/give them space if they are not interested. & it should ALWAYS be an option for the adoptee to change their mind in the future.

When I expressed an interest in seeking out identifying information/family, my adoptive parents said they would support me with whatever I chose. I greatly appreciated that from them, however, I could sense the unresolved feelings they had & it made it very painful for me to involve them in the process because my intention was never to hurt them.

Although it is more than understandable that adoptive parents may have insecurities, leaving them unresolved can make adoptees suddenly feel our relationships with our parents are not as secure as we believed. It can be very unsettling to see how threatened some adoptive parents feel by reunion.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:07 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,597,375 times
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Originally Posted by susankate View Post
My policy is that as long as the adoptee feels comfortable to feel what they feel, whether it is curiosity or lack of curiosity, then that is OK.

I do know adoptees IRL and online who have said that their APs made their children feel like they were betraying them when the adoptees told them about their plans to locate APs. Other APs have said to their children "If you love me, you wouldn't want to look". I am sure you will agree that that isn't fair on the adoptee.

That's not to say I would agree with an AP pushing their child to look, either. As has been pointed again and again on this forum, it is the adoptees right. Deciding to find/meet bfamily is a very hard thing and should never be undertaken lightly so I can totally understand an adoptee not wanting to search and no-one should ever push them to do so.
I definitely never understood that line of reasoning (in bold). The reason I searched for my biological mother was with the goal of telling her how amazing my adoptive parents are and how she made the right decision, and to please not feel guilty if she does. So my adoptive parents obviously realize that I love them and that my motivation for searching for my biological mother didn't at all mean that I don't love my adoptive parents--in fact, quite the opposite.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:16 AM
 
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Once thing I have come to realize is that most of the bias, discrimination and hostility I have faced comes out of this line of thinking:

"Blood is thicker than water."

People who truly believe this and live by it often do not realize how it feels to adoptive families to hear that statement.
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