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Old 09-13-2012, 10:03 PM
 
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quote=sheena12;26085258"strong family systems" is a sociological term. It is not a value judgement.

I wasn't saying it was - I was just pointing out that my "family system" was not that different to yours.

My daughter does not want them in her life nor do I think that will change. I know it will not change. My grad children will have 2 grandparents on the maternal side.

All I'm saying is that that is your daughter's decision and only HERS to make.

Do you agree though that if an another adoptee DID want their bparents to also be "co-grandparents" that would be THEIR decision to make.

What their aparents "signed up for" is irrelevant once the child becomes an adult.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:06 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,117,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
The point of what I'm try to say is that it doesn't matter what the adoptive parents signed up for - once an adoptee reaches adulthood, it is their choice to make whatever decisions they wish, just like every other human being.

I'm very respectful of my amom's feelings and would never hurt her but I am not going to allow her wishes to stop me from doing what I wish to do (not that she has any problems with my being in reunion but just saying that if she did, then that would be her issue to deal with, not mine, although I would be as respectful and understanding as I could be).
Actually it does. I can't fly over to Seoul and demand to know the where abouts of my daughter's parents.Well I could so could my daughter. But I'm sure there would be trouble. They can not fly to PA and do that to me. If they came to my door we'd call the cops. And the adoption agency. They told us it was a closed adoption.

You are not my daughter. You should do as you see fit. It's not my businesss and you don;t need my approval.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:08 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,117,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
quote=sheena12;26085258"strong family systems" is a sociological term. It is not a value judgement.

I wasn't saying it was - I was just pointing out that my "family system" was not that different to yours.

My daughter does not want them in her life nor do I think that will change. I know it will not change. My grad children will have 2 grandparents on the maternal side.

All I'm saying is that that is your daughter's decision and only HERS to make.

Do you agree though that if an another adoptee DID want their bparents to also be "co-grandparents" that would be THEIR decision to make.

What their aparents "signed up for" is irrelevant once the child becomes an adult.

sure it's her discussion.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:17 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
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BTW. My daughter has one birth certificate. All of it is true. It does not mention whose birth canal she entered the world through.

It does say the names of her parents. Us. the time and place that she was born and the hour. There is nothing false.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Warren, OH
2,748 posts, read 3,322,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykee View Post
It is the last sentence above that I wish to address. There are a few emotions that come out when people misuse the terms. As I've explained in another post, both sets of parents are real. I don't think the whole of society actually understands the concept. Most people have one mother and one father; adoptees have two mothers and two fathers. Most people have trouble defining this or conceptualizing this in their minds. To "split" is to have mental illness, so anything that contradicts the norm is attacked. Adoptees' realities are split due to adoption, and so, adoptive parents may not be seen as real. Adoptees do not have mental illness for making the distinction and accepting their reality. Adoptive parents feel they must defend themselves.

"Normal" can be tricky. Because I've lived with this for so long, I've come full circle on where I stand. I personally see adoption as "not normal" because it is taking someone else's child and making that child as if born to you (the generic "you"). It is living a fantasy,not accepting your own reality, of perhaps infertility. One cannot fabricate another person's child and make her your own.

There is so much here that is dangerous for the mental health of all involved. The false birth certificates, for example, say that the new set of parents gave birth to the child who actually is adopted. So, many adoptive parents feel that they don't have to tell the adoptee the truth. I know of many adoptees who find out at age 45 or 55 or 65 years old that they were adopted --- their whole lives have been lived in many lies. That is not normal. It is not normal to lie to your children you supposedly love.

It is not normal for gay men to ask for, demand, expect, and fight for laws granting them to have two fathers named on a birth certificate. Or two women. Gay or Lesbian rights do not enter in here. Reality does. One sperm and one egg make one baby. To say otherwise on a legal birth certificate is not normal. It is also illogical. A child of such a same-gender-two-parent household will understand at an early age what the "birds and the bees" are and will question the sanity of the two parents who fought like hell to win the legal right to demand they be named on a birth certificate for an adoptee.

An adoption certificate, yes. A birth certificate, no.

This same arguement holds for a mother and father, by adoption, who are named on a birth certifcate that is legal proof that they actually gave birth. This does not make logical sense. This creates cognitive dissonance in adoptive parents who believe such a document (giving them the sense that they own this child; or that they have a sense of entitlement over this child). This also creates cognitive dissonance in the adoptee who sees the birth certiticate and knows it is not true, yet, by law, we are not allowed to see or own a certified copy of our own birth certificates.

Again: one birth certificate, and one adoption certificate. I've been saying this for decades. It was like this in USA prior to 1930...


As far as "natural" is concerned, again, you won't like my answer. "Natural" is a legal term. It is also a biological term, meaning nature. The mother cell has two daughter cells...and genetic inheritance. In some adoption papers, a distinction is made between the "natural" parents and the "adopting parents". There is nothing wrong in making such a disctinction. In adoption, this is necessary.

Back to the idea of the original post: whenever I would make the destinction between my natural father and my adoptive parents, people grew angry with me. It seems they wanted me to say simply "Mom" or "Dad" And I did, to their faces. But when describing my family to other people, I would make the destinction so others would know the difference.
From what you have written, you appear to be a very angry person. Are you one of the people you were talking about, not being told that you were adopted until you were 65 years old. If so, that's not right. My daughter knows she was adopted and has no problem with it. She has never been interested in finding her birth parents. I take offense that you say adoption is not normal. People build their families all different ways, from having biological children, to adoption both domestic and international, to foster care, etc.
As far as your mentioning that "Natural" is a legal term according to Webster's Unabridged Dictionary Natural is "Related only by birth; of NO legal relationship". You really have to come to terms with your own life and not putting down the way people have families.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:42 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,117,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
From what you have written, you appear to be a very angry person. Are you one of the people you were talking about, not being told that you were adopted until you were 65 years old. If so, that's not right. My daughter knows she was adopted and has no problem with it. She has never been interested in finding her birth parents. I take offense that you say adoption is not normal. People build their families all different ways, from having biological children, to adoption both domestic and international, to foster care, etc.
As far as your mentioning that "Natural" is a legal term according to Webster's Unabridged Dictionary Natural is "Related only by birth; of NO legal relationship". You really have to come to terms with your own life and not putting down the way people have families.

Agreed. Consider yourself "repped" as I can;t give you rep at the moment. I owe you ome.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:52 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,855,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Actually it does. I can't fly over to Seoul and demand to know the where abouts of my daughter's parents.Well I could so could my daughter. But I'm sure there would be trouble. They can not fly to PA and do that to me. If they came to my door we'd call the cops. And the adoption agency. They told us it was a closed adoption.

You are not my daughter. You should do as you see fit. It's not my businesss and you don;t need my approval.
I don't know how Korea works but in NZ in a closed adoption, if a birthparent wanted to contact their child, they would first have to wait until the adoptee was 18, and then they would have had to contact the Dept of Social Welfare. The Dept of Social Welfare would then contact the adoptee to see if they want contact. Thus, just turning up on the doorstep is not exactly an option.

As I just said above, I don't know the situation with Korean bmoms but I believe they would have to contact the agency first, who would then contact the adoptee (over 18). So I don't think you need to worry about any bmoms landing on your doorstep anytime soon.

In today''s more recent Korean adoptions, I've heard of cases where the adoption was started as closed (because that was the only option at the time of the adoption) but in the last few years, the agency has contacted the APs to ask if they would like to exchange letters and/or photos with the BPs - however, that is entirely up to the AP until their child reaches 18.

As for the last sentence, I'm not seeking your approval. I am merely talking in general terms trying to state that even YOUR daughter can do as she sees fit and that she also wouldn't need your approval once she is 18. The fact that she has no wish to do so is irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, I'm saying that she has the right to do whatever she wishes. That obviously also includes not having anything to do with her bparents, that is HER right.

Up to age 18, it is your business. After 18, it is your daughter's business, just like any other choice/decision she may wish to make. That is all I'm trying to point out.

Last edited by susankate; 09-13-2012 at 11:13 PM..
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
sure it's her discussion.
Exactly. That is entirely the point I'm trying to make.

Your business before 18, her business after 18.

Last edited by susankate; 09-13-2012 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:04 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,855,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
From what you have written, you appear to be a very angry person. Are you one of the people you were talking about, not being told that you were adopted until you were 65 years old. If so, that's not right. My daughter knows she was adopted and has no problem with it. She has never been interested in finding her birth parents. I take offense that you say adoption is not normal. People build their families all different ways, from having biological children, to adoption both domestic and international, to foster care, etc.
As far as your mentioning that "Natural" is a legal term according to Webster's Unabridged Dictionary Natural is "Related only by birth; of NO legal relationship". You really have to come to terms with your own life and not putting down the way people have families.
Warren Zee, "natural" was in fact used on legal documents in the 60s. I have some legal documents that say that I am the "natural" daughter of my bmom.

Just another point re: - My daughter knows she was adopted and has no problem with it. She has never been interested in finding her birth parents.

Those two sentences don't always have to go together. For example, there are many adoptees who consider themselves to have no problems with being adopted but whom are interested in finding their birthparents. There are others who do have problems with being adopted who have no interest in finding their birthparents.

If your daughter does decide to find her bparents, that wouldn't necessarily mean she had a problem with being adopted, it would just mean that she wants to find her bparents. A person wanting to find their bparents is not doing so to spite their APs, they are doing so for their own curiosity.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:14 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,117,825 times
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But susankate you are now allowing that thousands do not want to meet these people. Not everyone is like you. Can you accept that? My daughter does not even want to visit the country.

Actually she wants to visit Australia, Second choice? New Zeland. We have relatives there BTW.

It would be up to her but we don't want to meet them. So they would not be in our life. I would say I would be equally surprised in the case of my daughter if she wanted a sex change.

YOU are very curious about this and that's you. However that is not my daughter or any of the 50 or 49 or so adult adoptees I have known.

She's just not into it. Can you leave it alone? I cam and I will.

You are projecting your desires onto a young woman you have never met. She knows how much we wanted her and she knows that the woman who gave girth to her did not want to parent.

And she does not want to meet that woman or her ex boyfriend. Really that's it.

She loves us and she knows that we moved heaven and earth to get her home. We would do it 20000000000000 times again if we had to.

Now after 18 years we are doing it again with older children in a different country that permits people our age to adopt. We are adopting older kids not infants. Kids who have little chance of finding forever families in their own country.

One thing will remain the same. It will be a closed adoption.
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