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Old 09-14-2012, 12:34 AM
 
116 posts, read 85,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
From what you have written, you appear to be a very angry person. Are you one of the people you were talking about, not being told that you were adopted until you were 65 years old. If so, that's not right. My daughter knows she was adopted and has no problem with it. She has never been interested in finding her birth parents. I take offense that you say adoption is not normal. People build their families all different ways, from having biological children, to adoption both domestic and international, to foster care, etc.

As far as your mentioning that "Natural" is a legal term according to Webster's Unabridged Dictionary Natural is "Related only by birth; of NO legal relationship". You really have to come to terms with your own life and not putting down the way people have families.
I tried to quote the whole message...This has been stated in other post threads. When an adoptee points out detailed explanations based upon years of experience, education (formal or informal), as well as taking into account knowing hundreds, if not thousands, of adoptees and natrual parents, the adoptive parents who hear these statements always say the adoptee is "angry".

I was raised ann only child by two adoptive parents who knew, but did not want me to know, the truth. They knew my father and mother. They knew my mother died. they knew I had four older siblings who lived six miles away from us while I was growing up. yet, because mine was a closed adoption, it was the "thing" to do back then, not to tell the child anything. Yet, the way I was raised was with suspicion, with anger toward me as a child, and possessiveness that I was theirs and theirs alone.

When I was 18 and still in high school, I was found by my four older siblings. All hell broke out in my house. How could my parents lie to me for my short lifetiime of 18 years? I grew up alone, but my my full blood siblings were very close...what a waste! I could have had a childhood with my siblings, but no, my loving adoptive parents wanted me all to themselves. This is very, very wrong.

No one in a divorce situation would get away with anything like this today. Visitation with siblings and the non-custodial parent are almost aways mandatory, unless in severe abuse and neglect. Even in these situations, the child does not lose connections with siblings, nor lose her own birth certificate.

I knew I was adopted, but was never allowed to talk about it, and never allowed to talk about my mother who died. I was never allowed to go toher grave. I first saw my mother's grave when I was 18 years old --- much too old to grieve for her death for the first time or to know where she is burried: Another Dead Mother as Proof that Adoption is God.

Actually, I am a very sad person. I lost my mother to death, and then I lost my entire family to adoption. I was raised in a loving home, but that love was possessive and conditional. They loved me with the condition that I should never know my own sisters and father and I should never know where my mother was buried.

That uncle I told you about when this thread first began? He was one of 7 full siblings and 2 half siblings of my adoptive father. All of these siblings (my adoptive aunts and uncles) knew the truth of my adoption and knew where my mother was buried and knew where my father lived and knew where my sibligns lived. NONE of the adults involved behaved like adults. "Keep her away from her father because she is adopted and must never know!" --- Hence, the abuse I suffered.

The only person to live by the adoption decree ws my natural father. he was told by the court to stay away, He did. But the siblings of his deceased wife, my maternal aunts and uncles, pestered my adoptive aunts and uncles for information about me. Everyone knew except for me, my siblings, and our father.

How would you feel if this happened to you?

And still, when I met my father, my stepmother, and my siblings in 1974, I did not turn my back on my adoptive parents. My Dad died when he was 67; Mom died last year at age 95.

"You really have to come to terms with your own life..." Well, I have been doing just that! By speaking out, trying to change laws so that adoptees have truthful birth certifcates and an adoption certificate, and by educatinig people, and yes, by reading, attending adoption conferences, and writing. I have come to terms with my life. Please don't talk down to me. I suspect I am way older than you are. You should have respect for your elders. Especially one who has paid dearly for the pleasure and privaledge of being adopted.

Ask my adult children what adoption means to them and they will turn their back on you.

You cann build your family any way you wish, as long as you have respect for your adoptee.

By the way, I resent your attitude about "natural" with the emphasis on NO legal relationship. As I have previously stated, an adoptee has two sets of real parents. YOU had better start accepting reality. Just because your adoptee has no LEGAL relationship with her parents of conception and birth does not mean they are not important in her life. They may not be present, but they are meaningful. If she doesn't recognize that now, she may in the future. And so might her subsequent generations for it is their genes, not yours, that will propegate her future children and grandchilden.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:37 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,863,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
But susankate you are now allowing that thousands do not want to meet these people. Not everyone is like you. Can you accept that? My daughter does not even want to visit the country.

Actually she wants to visit Australia, Second choice? New Zeland. We have relatives there BTW.

It would be up to her but we don't want to meet them. So they would not be in our life. I would say I would be equally surprised in the case of my daughter if she wanted a sex change.

YOU are very curious about this and that's you. However that is not my daughter or any of the 50 or 49 or so adult adoptees I have known.

She's just not into it. Can you leave it alone? I cam and I will.

You are projecting your desires onto a young woman you have never met. She knows how much we wanted her and she knows that the woman who gave girth to her did not want to parent.

And she does not want to meet that woman or her ex boyfriend. Really that's it.

She loves us and she knows that we moved heaven and earth to get her home. We would do it 20000000000000 times again if we had to.

Now after 18 years we are doing it again with older children in a different country that permits people our age to adopt. We are adopting older kids not infants. Kids who have little chance of finding forever families in their own country.

One thing will remain the same. It will be a closed adoption.

if she wanted a sex change.

I and most people I know at present would never want a sex change (I did know quite a few transgender people where I used to live). At the same time, it would be our rights as humans over the age of 18 to do so. I have no wish to get tattoos or piercings, at the same time, it is my right to so do. At no time, would either of the above acts ever be my parents business. They might not like it but it aint their business. If I had a child and decided that my next door neighbours were going to co-grandparent with my parents, that would be my business, not my parents business.

Putting adoption aside, once we all reach the age of 18, everything is our own business - that is the point of what I'm trying to make. Your daughter can do what she likes, I couldn't care less, but whatever she does in life after she turns 18 is her business - just like every other human in the world.

Anyway, we certainly have flogged this to death. I accept that you can't quite grasp that I am trying to talk about a person's rights in general and not particularly talking about your daughter per se. I couldn't care less what she does.

Last edited by susankate; 09-14-2012 at 01:00 AM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:48 AM
 
116 posts, read 85,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
And I agree with that. All human beings should have access to to all records that they desire conserning themselves.

At the same time, people should be afforded privacy if that is what they desire.
Me having my true birth certificate has nothing to do with anyone else's privacy.

If anything, my privacy has been invaded by my government falsifying my birth certificate because it was assumed that all adoptees are illegitimate.. I was not.

My government is preventing me from my most basic civil and human rights.

My mother died not knowing that she would be stricken from my legal birth certificate forever.

If people do not want contact, they have every right to say so and that should be respected by any searching adoptee.

My right to my birth certificate does not mean I will be searching and seeking a reunion. Adoptees are denied our civil and human rights via the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child.

What about the adoptee's right to no contact? What if the adoptee does not want contact from meddling natural blood kin? What about the adoptee's right to not be harrassed by annonymous hate mail and hate phone calls by an uncle who was discovered 22 years later as being the perpetrator?

How about standing up with adoptees for justice? One true birth certificate and one adoption certificate --- that was the law before 1930 in USA.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:51 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,258,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
if she wanted a sex change.

I and most people I now know would never want a sex change. At the same time, it would be our rights as humans over the age of 18 to do so. I have no wish to get tattoos or piercings, at the same time, it is my right to so do. At no time, would either of the above acts ever be my parents business. They might not like it but it aint their business. If I had a child and decided that my next door neighbours were going to co-grandparent with my parents, that would be my business, not my parents business.

Putting adoption aside, once we all reach the age of 18, everything is our own business - that is the point of what I'm trying to make. Your daughter can do what she likes, I couldn't care less, but whatever she does in life after she turns 18 is her business - just like every other human in the world.

Anyway, we certainly have flogged this to death. I accept that you can't quite grasp that I am trying to talk about a person's rights in general and not particularly talking about your daughter per se. I couldn't care less what she does.
I think it's been flogged to death as well. Some people do want sex changes. I know some one who has had one. It's not for you and I can accept that.

Meeting the woman who gave birth to her is not for my daughter. If one of my children were tangender I'd be supportive.

When my daughter turns eighteen she will be a Freshman in college. Not longing or looking for a woman she doesn't know.

This conersation is over. Let's agree to disagree.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:04 AM
 
116 posts, read 85,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
And I agree with that. All human beings should have access to to all records that they desire conserning themselves.

At the same time, people should be afforded privacy if that is what they desire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
If she completely changes her point of view and wants to meet this woman that would be her business. She's almost grown now and so far does not. When she has children, her curiosity could be peaked, but she has strong immutable, opinions so I doubt it will happen. Like any mom, I know my children.

Would I welcome any sort of a co-grandparenting or involving them in family celebrations? No.Never.
But, remember; that was not what I signed up for. It was not part of the TOS, if you will.

Knowing my daughter and her lack of sentimentality, (not lack of love or compassion) it would be a huge leap of hypothetical thought to even imagine that she'd want that.

We are not that into our extended family, our genealogy, our ethnic background or any thing. We do not feel that we "owe" it to anyone to be present on holidays or anything of the sort.

Strong family systems are more interested in that. We are not that tight knit. I don't sentimentalize my parents. They had there good points and bad points. I had a nice child hood and my needs were well taken care of. My sisters and I have little in common.

When I select greeting cards for my dad, who is still living, it is a long process. Most are way "tooo mushy".


BTW my daughter was born in Korea in 1996. Her birth certificate lists us as her parents. This is not problematic to any of us.
We also don't know her sur name. The one she had at the time of adoption was that of her foster mom and it's a very popular name in Korea.

"Would I welcome any sort of a co-grandparenting or involving them in family celebrations? No.Never.
But, remember; that was not what I signed up for. It was not part of the TOS, if you will."

This is entitlement mentality. Remember: Every adoptee has two sets of real parents.

If your daughter had a reunion with her natural parents and she decided who would be present at family gatherings, you would have to button your lip and stop being the angry and bitter adoptive mother who hs to share the daughter you actually do share with another family.

It was not part of the TOS --- according to you. That is a possessive mindset. You do not own your adoptee.

"BTW my daughter was born in Korea in 1996. Her birth certificate lists us as her parents. This is not problematic to any of us."

Just because her "birth certificate" lists you as her parents does not make it a truthful document. It is a falsified birth certificate. Your husband did not sire her and your did not carry a pregnancy to term and you did not give birth to her. Therefore, neither of your names should logically be listed on a birth certificate. Your names and the facts of the adoption should be listed on an adoption certificate. Birth is a sacred act. Birth and adoption are not the same events.

While it may not be problematic to any of you now, when your daughter realizes exactly what it means to be pregnant and give birth, she may resent what lies were told in order for her to be adopted. Her falsified birth certificate may be problematic to her in the future. And, it certainly is problematic to the mother who actually gave birth to her since the real facts are wiped out in favor of a legal lie so that adoptive parents can feel that they gave birth.

Please see my other comment posts about this same issue: when adoptive parents see that their names are on a "birth certificate" they begin to believe the false facts stated on a government issued and certified birth certificate. They know they did not actually give birth, but the birth certificate says they did, so it must be true.

Reality check anyone?
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:15 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,258,366 times
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I am done with this debate. The ignore feature is my friend....whatever.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:40 AM
 
116 posts, read 85,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Could you accept that people are different and some people adopted or not see this differently?

I can accept that.

Can you accept that my daughter's point of view is that she has two parents - US?

No we did not give birth to her. But we are her parents.

The other two people are not her parents.. Not to her her to my husband her brother or me.Not legally.

You see this differently and that's OK

I can accept that. They can both be right. One does not need be the "wrong" way of looking at things.

It is hurtful that you don't think my family is normal and that I'm not living a lie or livi8ng i a fantasy world or land or what ever. My daughter has two parents. They are in my house now.

Your way of looking at this is unique to say the least. According to law I am the parent of two children.
Sheena: you are not dealing in reality. Your daughter two other parents and that is a fact. You don't want to acknowledge the facts. please read books by H David Kirk as he said that it is the acceptance of difference that is important for adoptive parents to grasp, not only for themselves, but for the healthy development of their adoptee.

please read books by David Brodzinsky on adoption psychology.

When you say that "the other two people are not her parents" you are deluding yourself. And your statement immediately following: "Not ot her, to my husband, her bother, or me. Not legally," just proves my point. No, your adopted daughter's other parents do not exisit legally. They Do exist physically. They are real people. You and your husband are real people. Two sets of real parents. Split meaning; whereas most people have one mother and one father, adoptees have two mothers and two fathers. Period.

Whether or not your daughter accepts this right now or not, the facts are that she does have two other parents. She has other grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, possibly siblings. You don't know how they feel about their missing family member that now is in your custody. They lost of family member. You gained a family member.

I'm sorry that your are hurt. That is your interpretation. I am merely stating the facts. How you feel about the facts is up to you.

You are living a lie. You are denying the existance of two other parents who are important in your daughter's life.

My way of looking at it is not unique. It is reality.

Please, please read some books! Annette Baran, Reuban Pannor, Betty Jean Lifton, Nancy Verrier, E Wayne Carp. Look these authors up on the Internet.

Please see: UNITED ADOPTEES INTERNATIONAL

Another book: Jane J. Trenka, author of 'Language of Blood, a memoir'

Your daughter may feel that she only has one set of parents at the moment, but have you provided her with any up-to-date and relevent reading on the subject? Does she know about United Adoptees International? The President is a Korean adopted into Holland, Hilbrand Westra. He will be very happy to discuss these issues with you and your daughter. Perhaps she is hiding her true desires from you because she fears it will hurt you if she expressed her feelings with you.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:58 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 987,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
From what you have written, you appear to be a very angry person. Are you one of the people you were talking about, not being told that you were adopted until you were 65 years old. If so, that's not right. My daughter knows she was adopted and has no problem with it. She has never been interested in finding her birth parents. I take offense that you say adoption is not normal. People build their families all different ways, from having biological children, to adoption both domestic and international, to foster care, etc.

Sorry I have not been here to comment along with everyone, but THIS is what this thread is about. This thread was made for adoptees to share THEIR experience of hostility, bias, & discrimination. You are patronizing an adoptee for having a different opinion from you by calling her angry.

This is for some reason okay for adoptive parents to do, but not for adoptees to even criticize the adoption industry or express the negatives of growing up adopted?

You can take offense to whatever you want, but I take offense to you trying to tell adoptees what should be considered normal or not normal. I take offense when people assume we want adoption reform because we had a "bad experience." If you are curious about our personal stories, ask questions. Do not accuse & dismiss us.

You look at adoption only as a way to build a family, but it is more than that to the adoptee. WE had to lose families (or more) in order for our second family to ever meet. If it weren't for a great amount of misfortune, you would never have your children to begin with.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 09-14-2012 at 06:10 AM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:32 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,633,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykee View Post
I tried to quote the whole message...This has been stated in other post threads. When an adoptee points out detailed explanations based upon years of experience, education (formal or informal), as well as taking into account knowing hundreds, if not thousands, of adoptees and natrual parents, the adoptive parents who hear these statements always say the adoptee is "angry".

I was raised ann only child by two adoptive parents who knew, but did not want me to know, the truth. They knew my father and mother. They knew my mother died. they knew I had four older siblings who lived six miles away from us while I was growing up. yet, because mine was a closed adoption, it was the "thing" to do back then, not to tell the child anything. Yet, the way I was raised was with suspicion, with anger toward me as a child, and possessiveness that I was theirs and theirs alone.

When I was 18 and still in high school, I was found by my four older siblings. All hell broke out in my house. How could my parents lie to me for my short lifetiime of 18 years? I grew up alone, but my my full blood siblings were very close...what a waste! I could have had a childhood with my siblings, but no, my loving adoptive parents wanted me all to themselves. This is very, very wrong.

No one in a divorce situation would get away with anything like this today. Visitation with siblings and the non-custodial parent are almost aways mandatory, unless in severe abuse and neglect. Even in these situations, the child does not lose connections with siblings, nor lose her own birth certificate.

I knew I was adopted, but was never allowed to talk about it, and never allowed to talk about my mother who died. I was never allowed to go toher grave. I first saw my mother's grave when I was 18 years old --- much too old to grieve for her death for the first time or to know where she is burried: Another Dead Mother as Proof that Adoption is God.

Actually, I am a very sad person. I lost my mother to death, and then I lost my entire family to adoption. I was raised in a loving home, but that love was possessive and conditional. They loved me with the condition that I should never know my own sisters and father and I should never know where my mother was buried.

That uncle I told you about when this thread first began? He was one of 7 full siblings and 2 half siblings of my adoptive father. All of these siblings (my adoptive aunts and uncles) knew the truth of my adoption and knew where my mother was buried and knew where my father lived and knew where my sibligns lived. NONE of the adults involved behaved like adults. "Keep her away from her father because she is adopted and must never know!" --- Hence, the abuse I suffered.

The only person to live by the adoption decree ws my natural father. he was told by the court to stay away, He did. But the siblings of his deceased wife, my maternal aunts and uncles, pestered my adoptive aunts and uncles for information about me. Everyone knew except for me, my siblings, and our father.

How would you feel if this happened to you?

And still, when I met my father, my stepmother, and my siblings in 1974, I did not turn my back on my adoptive parents. My Dad died when he was 67; Mom died last year at age 95.

"You really have to come to terms with your own life..." Well, I have been doing just that! By speaking out, trying to change laws so that adoptees have truthful birth certifcates and an adoption certificate, and by educatinig people, and yes, by reading, attending adoption conferences, and writing. I have come to terms with my life. Please don't talk down to me. I suspect I am way older than you are. You should have respect for your elders. Especially one who has paid dearly for the pleasure and privaledge of being adopted.

Ask my adult children what adoption means to them and they will turn their back on you.

You cann build your family any way you wish, as long as you have respect for your adoptee.

By the way, I resent your attitude about "natural" with the emphasis on NO legal relationship. As I have previously stated, an adoptee has two sets of real parents. YOU had better start accepting reality. Just because your adoptee has no LEGAL relationship with her parents of conception and birth does not mean they are not important in her life. They may not be present, but they are meaningful. If she doesn't recognize that now, she may in the future. And so might her subsequent generations for it is their genes, not yours, that will propegate her future children and grandchilden.
Kaykee, I realize your experience was painful and your feelings are valid. I would probably be very angry if that happened to me too. You do seem angry, which is understandable.

I just want to point out though, that just because that was your experience with adoption, does not mean that it is everyone's. For example, my experience with deafness was through domestic violence, but that doesn't mean that deafness is always about domestic violence for everyone.

Your adoption was intertwined with lies and jealousy and abusive relatives and so on, so I can understand the way you feel. Just keep in mind that it's not really fair to generalize your experience to all adoption. How biological parents fit into the picture is up to each adoptive family to decide. You may find that your biological parents are an important part of you and your history, which is again, valid and your right.

That said, it is also another adoptee's right to choose not to pursue their biological family history. For example, I don't have much interest in finding my biological family or having a long-lasting connection with them. That might change in the future, or might not. Every adoptee has the right to feel however they do in regards to their own adoption.

In other words, just as you are not "wrong" for feeling the way you do, other people are also not "wrong" for feeling the way they do.

Last edited by nimchimpsky; 09-14-2012 at 07:09 AM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:32 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 987,244 times
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People do not understand the rock & the hard place adoptees are put in, how torn we can feel between hurting our adoptive families by wanting to know our other family, where we came from, or actually hearing why we came to be adopted from our families as adoption records can rarely ever be trusted.

People do not think children pick up on the tension they feel about reunion, about our birth cultures/countries, or our other families, but they are wrong. & even if adoptive parents go to great lengths to make their children feel supported, adoptees still feel torn because society gives us the message that it will somehow betray our parents if we want to know our other family. I cannot tell you how many strangers have told me I was selfish & should remember who my mom & dad is -- as if they know me or my relationship with my parents.

We internalize all these things growing up & it makes it very difficult to be open about our true feelings until we are independent adults. Even then it is hard to share our true feelings about adoption.

People really shouldn't assume what their children will think/feel in the future, as that is something you cannot possibly predict.
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