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Old 10-02-2012, 11:20 AM
 
1,024 posts, read 984,379 times
Reputation: 834

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Unfortunately that is what I read into a few of the posts that seem rather anti adoption and a few comments made me a bit angry. I'm not going to argue with you or keep the debate running since it will just turn into pages of multiquotes and such. I'm merely explaining why adoption was a great thing for my family and our personal situation. And thank goodness it was available to us, otherwise the outcome would have been much different for our lovely kids.

Have a great day!!
Yes, well, not without the added jab at anyone here who is pro-adoptee/pro-reform (not necessarily anti-adoption), so I corrected you. Hope you have a nice day, too.

 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:30 PM
 
125 posts, read 131,454 times
Reputation: 110
Linmora, wanting things to be better in the bigger world of adoption doesn't mean that we're anti-child, or pro-child cruelty. No adult adoptee here has said that we think children are better off eating from the gutters or growing weak from lack of human attention.

We're pro-adoptee. We know that adoption means different things for many different adoptees. We do think it's important to recognize that adoptees are human beings, not gifts, not "special people," or anything else. And we are autonomous and should have, as far as possible, the ability to know who we were born to be, as well as who we are raised. It's up to each adoptee to measure and decide what to do with that information about him/herself. When adoption as a system (note that I say "system" and not "parents") is corrupt, the likelihood of children ever finding out who they were born is even more unlikely. But all adoptees have a right to that knowledge. It's worth fighting to change that a system that is broken.

Let's say it's like putting a band-aid on a arterial bleed in the emergency room. The blood is gushing out of the patient onto the floor, the patient is dying, but the doctor [lawyers, lobbyists, some adoptive parents, society in general] is stubbornly looking at the patient's pretty pedicure, or the color of the patient's eyes, or the smile on the patient's face. The nurse [some adult adoptees, some adoptive parents, some first parents] mention that we have to think about the blood loss, but we're dismissed as "angry and bitter" if we draw attention to anything other than the pedicure/eye color/smile. And yet we know the body. It's a system, and all of it needs to work together, and without blood volume, the heart will stop. It's not a contradiction to say that all parts need the other parts.

We need to work together to help adoptees achieve their best potential, and we can do that by being accepting of each other's experiences and acknowledging that adoption, as it exists, needs a serious review of ethics. International adoption is a subject that's debated in honesty (and hotly) by people like David Smolin and Elizabeth Bartholet. It's not black or white, good or bad. By acknowledging the grey areas and advocating for change, we can do so much good.

I am glad that your children are doing well with you.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:23 PM
 
1,459 posts, read 2,216,978 times
Reputation: 3108
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
I can assure you that no one here believes she would have been better off "languished" in the Russian system. You are really twisting what people are saying if that is what you gathered.
Actually, there have been posts in the forum (other threads) that did state this. That the poster did not believe provisions could not be made in the country of origin; that people 'just weren't trying' to find 'loving family members.'

That is the problem here ... such strong emotions really do cloud people's ability to read closely. That and maybe Linmora is like me, reading older threads and the posts are starting to run together
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:37 PM
 
1,024 posts, read 984,379 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohirette View Post
Actually, there have been posts in the forum (other threads) that did state this. That the poster did not believe provisions could not be made in the country of origin; that people 'just weren't trying' to find 'loving family members.'

That is the problem here ... such strong emotions really do cloud people's ability to read closely. That and maybe Linmora is like me, reading older threads and the posts are starting to run together
I have been following these discussions quite closely for a while now & no one has said they wanted children to suffer in their countries of origin. There is definitely a problem with people's inability to read or comprehend what is being written, because it's ridiculous to think that anyone here has promoted that. Being pro-family preservation is not being anti-guardianship or even anti-adoption.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 03:09 PM
 
1,459 posts, read 2,216,978 times
Reputation: 3108
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
I have been following these discussions quite closely for a while now & no one has said they wanted children to suffer in their countries of origin. There is definitely a problem with people's inability to read or comprehend what is being written, because it's ridiculous to think that anyone here has promoted that. Being pro-family preservation is not being anti-guardianship or even anti-adoption.
I came as close to quoting the phrases that shocked me as I could without finding the exact post. It seems you will require my finding that post, since you dismiss what I read as 'ridiculous' and choose to imply that I lack reading comprehension.

I've read thousands of posts in this forum since finding it a week ago (started at the beginning and read many very long threads.) What I referred to is probably the extreme, but it is assuredly here. Eventually, I find it and link you.

And why the last line? I certainly wasn't implying that many are anti adoption.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 03:19 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,856,092 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
No worries Craig!! That was an amazing link you posted. My heart cries for these children. I would like to add one more point. Even though some kids are more obviously special needs with Down's Syndrome and other disabilities, many kids in the regular orphanages have hidden disabilities that may not be readily apparent to the adoptive parent. We are pretty sure that our daughter had alcohol/drug exposure. We saw quite a few kids with FAS. Being in an institution and who knows what her genetic disposition is, she is quite the enigma to everyone and some of the more serious problems didn't crop up until puberty. Some her diagnoses were pretty scary. Then again, when we adopted her, we had a hunch that she wasn't going to be an easy kid and it wasn't going to be all butterflies and unicorns...

In spite of all of this, I think her chances here with us in the United States at least gives her a fighting chance. Had she languished in the Russian system, I'm not sure if that would have been a better thing. From what I've gleaned from some of the comments in this thread, I'm sure that some posters would disagree with me.
Yes, please point out the posts where any of us say that a child should languish in an orphanage. It sounds like you may be misunderstanding some posts.

There is another thread which talks about international and domestic adoption as well. I think some of us and Craig have had some lively discussions.

Perhaps also, Linmora, you might like to read some of the links I posted earlier (note that a lot of those links belong to adoptive parents). (Post #23)

Just remember also, that a lot of the improvement that has happened in international adoption is due to people whom have been considered "anti-adoption" and they will keeping on fighting corruption for as long as they can.

Last edited by susankate; 10-02-2012 at 03:38 PM..
 
Old 10-02-2012, 03:25 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,856,092 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohirette View Post
Actually, there have been posts in the forum (other threads) that did state this. That the poster did not believe provisions could not be made in the country of origin; that people 'just weren't trying' to find 'loving family members.'

That is the problem here ... such strong emotions really do cloud people's ability to read closely. That and maybe Linmora is like me, reading older threads and the posts are starting to run together
Actually, I may have discussed that happening in Uganda and other African nations. If you have read blogs like Riley's in Uganda (an AP blog), you will see that when international adoption is involved, perhaps looking for relatives isn't always first priority.

In fact, there are many prospective adoptive parents who do have concerns about that which is why some concerned APs have written checklists like the following:

http://www.adoptionagencychecklist.com/gpage.html1.html
 
Actually, there is another checklist I've read which does specifically talk more about the searching side of things, I'll see if I can find it.

Last edited by susankate; 10-02-2012 at 03:57 PM..
 
Old 10-02-2012, 03:54 PM
 
10,364 posts, read 8,365,562 times
Reputation: 19114
Not quite the same thing, but a poster who certainly appeared to be strongly opposed to all international adoption, including special needs adoption, strongly implied that Reece's Rainbow Down Syndrome Adoption Ministry was somehow breaking Ukrainian law, or at best, "getting around it", by posting photos of and information concerning the special needs of waiting children (while using pseudonyms and not indicating the orphanages or even in which country these children reside) on the RR website.

Reece's Rainbow is an advocacy non-profit which has assisted over 800 children with special needs who were residing in orphanages and institutions in 28 countries find adoptive families in the six or seven years of its existence.

It was only after I pointed out that the Ukrainian ministry of adoption's office in Kiev has RR posters prominently displayed that this poster subsided - and never apologized, or otherwise stated that they were mistaken in their claims and implications.

It's not a very good argument for one's beliefs to have to resort to such very questionable tactics.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 04:11 PM
 
393 posts, read 503,580 times
Reputation: 440
Craig - challenging the ethics when questions have been raised is not even close to saying children should rot in orphanages and adoption should stop.

It is when ethics aren't questioned and challenged that it spins so far out of control that entire countries close to adoption and then for sure those kids will rot in orphanages. Because there are apples rotten to the core in every single basket - and the same applies in any industry and adoption has a history of it to testify to the fact - if you (a company) are doing nothing wrong, then you are just fine with the challenge because it is in the childrens best interest to make sure they are protected.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 04:20 PM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,840,865 times
Reputation: 3121
I really feel like I kicked a hornet's nest and my comments were not at all meant to be an insult to the "pro-adoptee" side. We all want what is best for the children. There is certainly vast room for improvement in adoption reform and I can see where many of the posters are coming from on this thread. There have certainly been some horrible abuses of the system. In our personal situation, I felt that our actions were above board and in compliance with Russian law. I never thought that we were exploiting the poor or taking advantage of a bad situation. In fact, our particular agency worked really well with various orphanges in providing clothing, medical supplies, etc. They were accredited as well. Throughout our adoption process, I always felt that the system really vetted us to insure we were the best parents for our children. In our children's case, it was a case of severe neglect and abuse and I'm convinced that my kids are in a better situation. Of course they could have stayed in the Russian system however several prospective Russian families turned them down. My daughter was waiting a pretty long time.

Getting back to the thread though, I've felt that several posters have been anti-adoption in their views and comments like the following get my hackles up:

"Let's get real. Most adopting parents are not adopting children to cure world suffering. They are doing it to satisfy their own need to have children. And MOST, given the opportunity to have their own biological children, would do so, and not adopt. This altruistic reasoning for adoption is a sham."

Page 9 of this thread also gave me reason to wonder. I just thought that I was doing a good thing for our two wonderful kids and they have brought so much happiness to us. It has been a win-win situation for all of us. Sorry if I've given offense but I'm human and obviously these topics can strike emotional chords. Several posts really did give me an anti-adoption vibe.

Last edited by Siggy20; 10-02-2012 at 04:33 PM..
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