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Old 10-03-2012, 07:59 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,117,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Out of curiousity (and this isn't to argue), what are some of the things you all are proposing? I am genuinely curious. Do you think that you are making headway in adoption reform?
Lin, the trend that appears to be emerging here is as follows

1. Adoption is not normal

2. Adoption ruins lives

3. Adoption creates a scar that will never heal.

4. People who adopt are rich greedy and care only for themselves

5. It is a myth that teens do not make good mothers. They are fantastic parents!

6. Any group of people who call themselves a family who are not "blood related" or do not "share DNA" are bogus and some sort of abomination.

Pretty much that's what I'm getting out of this. Anyone else see this trend?

Sheena the Adopter

 
Old 10-03-2012, 08:01 AM
 
1,024 posts, read 984,035 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
International adoption done legally is also not human trafficking.

I think that there are people on this forum with some very strong feelings who refer to their legal parents as "Adopters" and think all adoption is human trafficking. Kind of like a bitter divorced person bashing marriage.
No, Sheena. As usual you are wrong about the people on this forum. We do not think ALL adoption is human trafficking, we advocate practices that ensure adoption is NEVER a result of human trafficking & that it is seen as a last resort for the best interests of children rather than a means to generate money/build middle class families.
 
Old 10-03-2012, 08:08 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,906 posts, read 36,195,563 times
Reputation: 42502
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcm7189 View Post
My natural maternal grandparents paid the adoption agency $10k to house my mother in a maternity home and get rid of (sell) me. The adoption agency then turned around and charged my adoptive parents $10k to obtain (buy) me. Catholic Charities took money from both sides in order to move (traffic) me from one family to another. This was all back in 1971 and things haven't changed much. Except the fees have gotten a lot higher.

Money changing hands in return for a human being is human trafficking. And legal human trafficking is still human trafficking.

Of course, I am totally open to hearing others views on this. Prove me wrong. Explain how I was not trafficked through Catholic Charities.

And please note that I have never, on this forum or anywhere else, referred to my adoptive parents as "adopters."
Human trafficking is a real thing, with a real definition. I didn't argue with threefoldme's reference to buying and selling children, nor do I get into it about "birth mother," "adopter," "PAP," or the words that people use to imply different things. Comparing domestic adoption to human trafficking is hyperbole.
 
Old 10-03-2012, 08:22 AM
 
1,024 posts, read 984,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
So, from what I have just read I heard from reading the last few pages:

4. Adoption cannot be free because there are required services - which of course is not what the discussion is about and is is a deflection from opening a conversation over whether the fee structure is wildly inflated. The discussion is "wildly inflated" which is due to "advertising" (one of the largest agency proudly boasts to spending over $1 Million per year advertising for "Birthmothers"). Paid for "lobbying" by the industry to get laws changed (how do you think they got the laws changed for [adoptive] parents to pay [birth] mother expenses? That happened because [birth] families stopped paying to send their daughters away (the shame factor) and agencies needed a carrot to get the mothers to come to them - [adoptive] parents will pay! The list is endless when it comes to domestic infant adoption. Problems found in the international adoption industry are pretty obvious - unscrupulous middle men in-country who see the ability to get huge sums (compared to what they could earn in country) of money for relatively little work and of course some officials in some countries willing to take bribes. All of which is compounded by laws set up in the US to not put any of those actions on the door step of the US adoption agency because they were not employees of said agency. Accountibilty is missing. Those are the problems that should be discussed, and quite frankly everyone should be outraged about because selling (instead of being a true non-profit enterprise) children is wrong no matter how you try to justify it.

5. That some are reading comments about Industry Practices and ASSUMES that the commentor is saying that YOU personally did something wrong, and that the comment was directed at specfically your personal adoption story and that you are bad, bad, bad. Instead of hearing the words spoken and saying - hey I saw things like that happen as well, and we did X, Y, Z to insure that was never part of our childs story - so lets talk about it so NO CHILD has that in their story. Lets share our knowledge so those just starting out are aware of the pitfalls and traps to avoid so it isn't in their childs story...and the perfect place to do that - on a message board FOR adoption - where people who turn to support and knowledge (just like Sheena said was the reason she did) when they start the adoption process. Lets discuss the red flags...
This.
 
Old 10-03-2012, 08:34 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,855,336 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Out of curiousity (and this isn't to argue), what are some of the things you all are proposing? I am genuinely curious. Do you think that you are making headway in adoption reform?
It is midnight where I am but I just "cut and paste" this bit of another thread to give you an overview of our system in NSW:

Quote:
I live in NSW and all adoptions are done through the government, Centacare (Catholic Church) or Anglicare (Anglican).
You can judge for yourself how each organisation addresses adoption:
are you a birth parent?
CatholicCare - Adoption Services
Adoption Services - Anglicare
and for older children, Barnardos:
Barnardos - Foster care and adoption
 
I agree that the US will never be like Australia because the industry is too deeply entrenched but there are certainly baby steps that the US can take.

For example, I do find that quite a few US adoption websites and feeder websites to be rather pushy in their advertising to expectant mothers because many do come across as selling adoption on the client while trying to say that they are helping the client "consider their options". However, when looking at Canadian agency sites, they seemed to be able to talk about adoption without pushing it onto anyone reading them (perhaps following government guidelines?). Canada is of course different to the US in many ways which is why I am talking more about the agencies themselves.

Also, I feel the agencies that are most fair to emoms (and from what I've heard cheaper for prospective adoptive parents) are human service type agencies (not necessarily government (eg as you can see from above we have Christian agencies)) where adoption is not the reason d'etre for the agency to exist. This is because they are suggested or given resources (eg accommodation, advice re future plans) as if they are a person in need rather than a women relinquishing her baby.

Actually, the following is just a thought that if you did know an emom that required accommodation - rather than paying for it through an agency, it might be worth trying to find a maternity home that has NO affiliation with adoption (there are some out there and they will usually make that clear on their websites)and is one where they learn skills getting them ready for the future. They may end up deciding to parent but if they did decide to still relinquish, you will probably be able to say that they were offered help they needed to parent and thus made their choice as truly as they can.

I also think that both emoms and prospective APs could all do with a mandatory checklist to be read before relinquishment so that they can make sure that all bases have been covered.

The above are just thoughts. I am genuinely trying to suggest ways to help improve the situation in the US. Perhaps being like Australia is out but one could look more towards Canada (eg re structures of agencies, advertising etc).

Also, on another point, someone mentioned about the poor in the US having access to certain services, however, on the whole that seems to be the non-working poor. However, the working poor often don't have access to those services (or are told they don't) and often aren't able to access health insurance and thus they can fall between the cracks. In fact, many women/families relinquishing are amongst the working poor.

Last edited by susankate; 10-03-2012 at 08:47 AM.. Reason: forget to add some links
 
Old 10-03-2012, 08:45 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,855,336 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Lin, the trend that appears to be emerging here is as follows

1. Adoption is not normal

2. Adoption ruins lives

3. Adoption creates a scar that will never heal.

4. People who adopt are rich greedy and care only for themselves

5. It is a myth that teens do not make good mothers. They are fantastic parents!

6. Any group of people who call themselves a family who are not "blood related" or do not "share DNA" are bogus and some sort of abomination.

Pretty much that's what I'm getting out of this. Anyone else see this trend?

Sheena the Adopter
No.

But then I read what people are actually saying rather than what I think they are saying.

I also try to think about the context in which something is being discussed.
 
Old 10-03-2012, 08:49 AM
 
203 posts, read 199,867 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
International adoption done legally is also not human trafficking.
Please explain. I've indicated that I'm open to hearing thoughts on this. The fees charged by many adoption agencies help support advertising efforts, lobbying efforts and the inflated salaries of CEOs. None of these things are required to find a child a safe, secure home. And yet that is where the money goes. Two of my neighbors adopted through Adoptions from the Heart. In 2006, the agency director there pulled in $239,581. So yeah. I must admit to feeling a bit like a piece of merchandise when agency directors are earning this much cash money through the fees charged to people in exchange for a human being.

Follow the money trail. Then convince me how it adoption is not legal human trafficking.

Editing: JustJulia presented a good rationale. So I will now focus on how the adoption industry in the business of selling children. For the reasons I've outlined above. However, I do feel that human trafficking and adoption cross paths quite a bit. Examples are offered in my next comment.

Last edited by gcm7189; 10-03-2012 at 09:06 AM..
 
Old 10-03-2012, 08:57 AM
 
203 posts, read 199,867 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Human trafficking is a real thing, with a real definition. I didn't argue with threefoldme's reference to buying and selling children, nor do I get into it about "birth mother," "adopter," "PAP," or the words that people use to imply different things. Comparing domestic adoption to human trafficking is hyperbole.
Okay, I get this. But are there cases such as the one in Guatemala in which a kidnapper presented to the agency as the biological parent and sold the child who was then adopted/bought by adoptive parents in the United States. The natural mother did not release her child for adoption. Her daughter was taken. This is where trafficking and adoption most definitely interconnect. And the adoption industry creates a environment where it can be quite lucrative to help keep the supply up. When Americans are willing pay $50k for a child, there is much incentive to keep the money train chugging down the track. There was an agency in China that paid a "finders fee" when a child was left at an orphanage. Wonder how many of those children were dropped off by someone other than their biological parents with the goal of collecting the fee?

So referring back to my personal example, would you say that I was simply sold and bought?
 
Old 10-03-2012, 09:12 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,906 posts, read 36,195,563 times
Reputation: 42502
Quote:
Originally Posted by gcm7189 View Post
Okay, I get this. But there cases such as those in Guatemala in which a kidnapper presented to the agency as the biological parent and sold the child who was then adopted/bought by adoptive parents in the United States. The natural mother did not release her child for adoption. Her daughter was taken. This is where trafficking and adoption most definitely interconnect. And the adoption industry creates a environment where it can be quite lucrative to help keep the supply up. There was an agency in China that paid a "finders fee" when a child was left at an orphanage. Wonder how many of those children were dropped off by someone other than their biological parents?
I did say "domestic adoption" in both my posts, because the discussion at the time was about state law. I don't know anything about Guatemalan or Chinese law regarding adoptions. Are American or foreign babies and children being kidnapped to stock American adoption agencies? Are American adoption agencies not performing some kind of due diligence like verifying birth certificates? Because if they're not, that's outrageous, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcm7189 View Post
So referring back to my personal example, would you say that I was simply sold and bought?
No, I do not make the connection between money's changing hands and somebody's owning you in the case of adoption. I think it's a service (facilitation) being paid for. I can understand feeling that way, though, and I'm sorry.
 
Old 10-03-2012, 09:20 AM
 
203 posts, read 199,867 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
No, I do not make the connection between money's changing hands and somebody's owning you in the case of adoption. I think it's a service (facilitation) being paid for. I can understand feeling that way, though, and I'm sorry.
This actually answers my question. I still don't see how a domestic agency director earning $239,581 is part of a "facilitation" process. That's quite a nice salary for overseeing the "facilitation" services involved with moving a child from one family to another.
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