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Old 10-05-2012, 03:15 PM
 
95 posts, read 82,446 times
Reputation: 55

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
First of all, gcm, you posted your "proof" of costly international adoption from Russia far removed from the post which contained your questionable statement which indicated that ALL international adoptions cost $50,000. This is something which both you and I know is not the case. You have clarified your position since then to indicate that your previous statement applied only to Russia, not necessarily to other countries, but have blamed others for not connecting your two far-distant posts.

Is it any wonder this sort of thing, along with general lack of respect for those who disagree with some of what you've posted, creates confusion, mistrust, and misunderstanding?

marymarym, do you really fail to understand what the difficulty is with writing which is intentionally designed to sway by use of less than honest techniques?

Obviously many here are capable of spotting such writing, but hyperbole, guilt by association, false attributions, negative insinuations, failure to footnote or document one's claims, or documenting with out of date, sometimes out of print or difficult to check sources, etc. should be identified and other readers, no matter how skilled or unskilled, should be alerted and those who use such techniques should be called to account for them. It is a ethical issue, not just one of clarity and avoidance of deliberate obfuscation in writing.

As for literacy, it's quite possible to be fully literate but to have never studied good writing, debate skills, forensics or language (or punctuation and spelling) to any great extent. However, in most cases, these skills ARE learned by those who study writing at the college and/or graduate level. Those who are not fully aware of or who have never been educated to recognize techniques such as those listed above are at greater risk of becoming easily entrapped by shaky arguments which the writer fears cannot stand on their own merit. Such arguments frequently are written quite emotionally, and may make use of one or more of the techniques outlined previously.

It's not just about documentation - it's far more subtle, when done by a skilled writer.

If you want me to cite sources for these statements, I would have to go back to my college textbooks and notes from my professors - actually, I was taught a lot about persuasive writing and the pitfalls associated with it when I was in high school in the 1960s. I doubt that today's students learn much about this in school, unfortunately.

Again, as I have written repeatedly, if one's point of view and beliefs are genuinely held, one should be able to explain and defend them without attacking others personally, as has occurred here lately. Such disrespectful behavior does not lend credence to those who demonstrate it.

As for documentation, a world of material from varying points of view has been linked here recently. I doubt if any one reader or poster has had the time to pursue, much less study each of those links and check them for accuracy and timeliness. Several such links which I checked (concerning adoption from Ukraine) contained serious errors and were out of date, something I noted and questioned here after I had read them. Other articles which I read seemed to be far more professionally written, well-researched, and were both informative and current, and I appreciated being referred to them.

Perhaps accurately and unheatedly summarizing or excerpting some of these lengthy references might be helpful to others reading here, in the interests of both time and of informing and actually helping others, rather than continuously engaging in time-wasting conflict.
Um Craig, we are not writing a masters thesis here. This is a forum where people are stating their opinion. I hardly think there is a need for "footnotes" and such. Why don't you leave it to the moderators to determine what is appropriate here as that is their job and not your's. Personally, I don't see such attacks that you speak of. I and other posters here obviously don't think this is "time-wasting conflict." If you do, why are you here?

 
Old 10-05-2012, 03:41 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 1,190,453 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marymarym View Post
Um Craig, we are not writing a masters thesis here. This is a forum where people are stating their opinion. I hardly think there is a need for "footnotes" and such. Why don't you leave it to the moderators to determine what is appropriate here as that is their job and not your's. Personally, I don't see such attacks that you speak of. I and other posters here obviously don't think this is "time-wasting conflict." If you do, why are you here?
Exactly. Resources have been posted time & time again with absolutely no acknowledgement from the people demanding them. Do you want to talk about the sources, or do you want to continue derailing this thread so you can blame adoptees for showing the same level of respect we've been shown?
 
Old 10-05-2012, 03:47 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,901 posts, read 42,625,050 times
Reputation: 42767
When threads turn into endless bouts of getting the last word, they've run their course.

Can we get back to the topic please?
 
Old 10-05-2012, 09:03 PM
 
1,880 posts, read 2,303,642 times
Reputation: 1480
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Tried to rep you but could not. I am all for this! EXCEPT short of being against any adoption, the ANTI Folks will not be satisfied.

The do not like domestic adoption, Adoptions in America, international adoption, older child adoption, adoption from teen aged mothers not ready to parent, adoption that is cross cultural..REALLY ANY ADOPTION!

They hate it! I have tried to find common ground but the thing is, it comes down to flesh and blood" as being the litmus test of family. The litmus test of LOVE.

Love have no litmus tests. Love is love. It covers all. DNA, ethnicity, blood and all of that....It means nothing. Animals are able to parent the children of other species.
However humans are incapable of parenting the young of the same species?

I just don't buy it.
Golly gee, Shezza babes, those ANTIs sound like a right bunch of drongos, don't they! Thank God we have you to warn us against them.

Thankfully, those curmudgeonly killjoys haven't infiltrated this subforum. Even better, this forum has been fortunate enough to have instead received an influx of intelligent adoptees who are sharing their knowledge of the adoption world.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 09:31 PM
 
116 posts, read 112,843 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by keribus72 View Post
Money changes hands & a human being is handed over - how is that not human trafficking? Seriously? Mark's justification for adoption costing so much money is that we live in a capitalist society so people will try to profit from everything including adoption & healthcare. If money is taken out of the equation, like in Australia, adoption virtually ceases to exist because no-one is profiting. You are kidding yourself if you think that calling them "agency fees" makes the money changing hands any more ethical.
Agreed.

This discussion quoting high fees, lawyers, agency costs, it all disgusts me.

When I asked my adoptive parents what kind of money was involved in my domestic adoption, Mom told me "$250.00 in lawyer's fees". That was in 1956. Cheap by today's attorney's fees. But still. It felt like I was punched in the gut. Fees. Money. My parents paid money to adopt me. They bought me.

Okay, try to soften the blow. No one can, so don't even try.

And I'm cheap. A friend of mine told me his adoptive parents paid $35,000.00 for him in 1955.

You should have seen the saad look on his face.

And he was another domestic adoptee. Born in NYC. Adopted NYC.

We both felt like we were bought. But it was and is called adoption.

To us, it's human trafficking.

Anyone doubt it, just go take the NCFA's online course on how to handle a pregnant girl/woman so she ends up deciding not to parent. She makes the mature decison not to parent. The worker gets paid, The agency gets paid.

Just watching the training videos make me sick. This is clearly brainwashing a mother out of her baby!

Supply and demand.

Domestic or intercountry. Either way, babyselling.
 
Old 10-05-2012, 09:36 PM
 
116 posts, read 112,843 times
Reputation: 82
I like the way adoption is handled in Australia. No profit. Maybe the focus on the needs of the child for a loving home is the real deal.

Might this be guardianship?

How does Australian adoption differ from guardianship?

In Australian domestic adoption, is the adoptee's birth certificate changed to name the adoptive parents as the parents of birth as we do here in USA?
 
Old 10-08-2012, 05:17 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,973 posts, read 32,296,294 times
Reputation: 68021
Some people simply are unprepared to parent when they give birth and others want a child and can't have one. From a functionalist perspective, the institution of adoption fills this need. Simple.
 
Old 10-08-2012, 05:35 PM
 
12,003 posts, read 11,854,088 times
Reputation: 22684
Thank you, tiffjoy.
 
Old 10-12-2012, 02:39 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 15,810,083 times
Reputation: 18844
Mod Note: I've truncated this thread and moved the last 80+ posts to a different thread.

Please feel free to continue discussing adoption reform on the new thread.

Thanks.
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