Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
3fold, it sounds as if you consider ALL of the "adoption system" to be "broken" and "unethical". While there have certainly been deplorable agencies involved in adoption, with plenty of corruption to go around (something I think everyone posting here would join you in criticizing and rejecting), there are also honest, straightforward agencies and individuals involved in adoption, along with non-profit organizations who advocate for adoption of orphaned (i.e., abandoned) children with special needs, along with similar groups who advocate for typical children who are living in foster care or orphanages.
Do you also consider these agencies, individuals, and non-profits to be unethical? I'm not talking about the tragedy of children living away from bio. families, of children who've been abused and neglected, or other societies lacking resources to assist individuals with special needs, or the need to help children in these situations around the world - again, I think we all deplore such evils.
But what is your view of the agencies, individuals, and non-profits who offer assistance with adoption as a means of getting these children into loving families? I understand you'd like to change the aspects of society here and elsewhere which lead to children being taken from or given up by birth families. So might we all. But meanwhile, the children are there, right now, today. What is the best solution for them? Is it really best for them to be returned to families which cannot care for them adequately, or for the children to live in orphanages or foster homes? Of course it would be wonderful if families which lack resources or stability could receive whatever assistance is needed to make them more functional - but in this sad world, that's highly unlikely to occur in time to help the children through the brief window of childhood.
So - what do we do with the children?? Help the institutions and orphanages with material assistance? Encourage volunteers to work with NGOs to provide extras which should really be basics? Encourage governments to more effectively support children in all situations? How do we change other society's perceptions and long-standing practices of viewing people with special needs as being of no use to "the state", hence of no value at all?
I'd be interested in some answers which indicate some thought has been given to these tough questions.
I've read through plenty of threads on this forum.
Some people who are against International Adoption have had problems in their lives. Mainly these people were adopted Domestically. Some of their problems began when they were never told they were adopted and either were told at an older age, or they found it out on their own (it felt as if they were lied to).
All of the adopted people we know were adopted Internationally and they all knew they were adopted at an early age, so no surprises about birth parents and their heritage. Our daughter does not want to find out about her birth parents, the information she has is sufficient for her.--- We are the only parents she knows and wants to know. She has no desire to visit her country of origin either, although my wife would like to. Our daughter says she is American and this is her country.
The split between Domestic adoption and International adoption is huge. Does anyone else notice these differences? I've not seen any problems posted by International adoptees, unless I'm missing something?
I think it's best said by another post on this thread that you should probably widen your sources of information. I was adopted from Korea and I did post on another thread here regarding changing names. The Korean adoptee community is actually very strong and I know quite a few. Every ADULT Korean adoptee that I have met has a strong interest in Korea, and their history. I would venture a guess that your daughter is still young. It's very common that an adoptee will seem "well adjusted" as a child, but will struggle with identity issues as a teen and into adulthood. I suggested to Sheena in another thread to get her daughter therapy. It was a very serious suggestion.
3fold, it sounds as if you consider ALL of the "adoption system" to be "broken" and "unethical". While there have certainly been deplorable agencies involved in adoption, with plenty of corruption to go around (something I think everyone posting here would join you in criticizing and rejecting), there are also honest, straightforward agencies and individuals involved in adoption, along with non-profit organizations who advocate for adoption of orphaned (i.e., abandoned) children with special needs, along with similar groups who advocate for typical children who are living in foster care or orphanages.
Do you also consider these agencies, individuals, and non-profits to be unethical? I'm not talking about the tragedy of children living away from bio. families, of children who've been abused and neglected, or other societies lacking resources to assist individuals with special needs, or the need to help children in these situations around the world - again, I think we all deplore such evils.
But what is your view of the agencies, individuals, and non-profits who offer assistance with adoption as a means of getting these children into loving families? I understand you'd like to change the aspects of society here and elsewhere which lead to children being taken from or given up by birth families. So might we all. But meanwhile, the children are there, right now, today. What is the best solution for them? Is it really best for them to be returned to families which cannot care for them adequately, or for the children to live in orphanages or foster homes? Of course it would be wonderful if families which lack resources or stability could receive whatever assistance is needed to make them more functional - but in this sad world, that's highly unlikely to occur in time to help the children through the brief window of childhood.
So - what do we do with the children?? Help the institutions and orphanages with material assistance? Encourage volunteers to work with NGOs to provide extras which should really be basics? Encourage governments to more effectively support children in all situations? How do we change other society's perceptions and long-standing practices of viewing people with special needs as being of no use to "the state", hence of no value at all?
I'd be interested in some answers which indicate some thought has been given to these tough questions.
I don't know if you read these from another thread:
yes, susankate, I both read your previous post with all of these links, went to several of the links, and pointed out here that some of the information on the Brandeis site concerning Ukraine was outdated and incorrect.
I would still appreciate a response to my own previous post above.
I also noted that much of the material cited above by susankate deals with adoption from far eastern countries. My own experience and knowledge concerns eastern Europe, a very different part of the world, with very different issues in regard to the orphan "crisis".
I do not think a one-size-fits-all approach is possible or wise when dealing with international adoption from various countries - they need to be examined individually, as laws, national and cultural traditions, and so much else varies quite broadly.
3fold, it sounds as if you consider ALL of the "adoption system" to be "broken" and "unethical". While there have certainly been deplorable agencies involved in adoption, with plenty of corruption to go around (something I think everyone posting here would join you in criticizing and rejecting), there are also honest, straightforward agencies and individuals involved in adoption, along with non-profit organizations who advocate for adoption of orphaned (i.e., abandoned) children with special needs, along with similar groups who advocate for typical children who are living in foster care or orphanages.
Do you also consider these agencies, individuals, and non-profits to be unethical? I'm not talking about the tragedy of children living away from bio. families, of children who've been abused and neglected, or other societies lacking resources to assist individuals with special needs, or the need to help children in these situations around the world - again, I think we all deplore such evils.
But what is your view of the agencies, individuals, and non-profits who offer assistance with adoption as a means of getting these children into loving families? I understand you'd like to change the aspects of society here and elsewhere which lead to children being taken from or given up by birth families. So might we all. But meanwhile, the children are there, right now, today. What is the best solution for them? Is it really best for them to be returned to families which cannot care for them adequately, or for the children to live in orphanages or foster homes? Of course it would be wonderful if families which lack resources or stability could receive whatever assistance is needed to make them more functional - but in this sad world, that's highly unlikely to occur in time to help the children through the brief window of childhood.
So - what do we do with the children?? Help the institutions and orphanages with material assistance? Encourage volunteers to work with NGOs to provide extras which should really be basics? Encourage governments to more effectively support children in all situations? How do we change other society's perceptions and long-standing practices of viewing people with special needs as being of no use to "the state", hence of no value at all?
I'd be interested in some answers which indicate some thought has been given to these tough questions.
Craig, you are not getting IT! The question is not "what do we do with the children?". The question is how do we stop the ever growing demand for babies? How do we stop the thinking that adoption is a "choice"? It's simple economics, extremely high demand with a high "payout" will create supply. Some people will do anything, pay anything to create their "dream family". Without this desperate demand, the business of adoption goes away and yes, it is a business.
yes, susankate, I both read your previous post with all of these links, went to several of the links, and pointed out here that some of the information on the Brandeis site concerning Ukraine was outdated and incorrect.
I would still appreciate a response to my own previous post above.
Actually, you commented on the Brandeis site long before I posted the above links so I suggest you read ALL the links I've quoted right through and then ask questions.
Also, just ask yourself one question about that ghastly orphanage you were talking about. You said that they refused help by NGOs, yet they accepted help by adoption agencies. Doesn't that send up red flags to you?
Countries like the Ukraine are at least going some way towards fixing their problems but if it weren't for those people working to end corruption in international adoption (often referred to as "those anti-international adoption people"), the small improvements that you talk about probably wouldn't have happened at all.
Last edited by susankate; 09-17-2012 at 07:49 PM..
I also noted that much of the material cited above by susankate deals with adoption from far eastern countries. My own experience and knowledge concerns eastern Europe, a very different part of the world, with very different issues in regard to the orphan "crisis".
I do not think a one-size-fits-all approach is possible or wise when dealing with international adoption from various countries - they need to be examined individually, as laws, national and cultural traditions, and so much else varies quite broadly.
Btw I mean to ask, what is your relationship to adoption? I am assuming you are an AP or a PAP?
Btw I mean to ask, what is your relationship to adoption? I am assuming you are an AP or a PAP?
I prefer you not use abbreviations. I find the term "PAP" to be rather offensive based on my experiences posting in some other adoption forums over the years. I think one should say the full term "prospective adoptive parent". "AP" is not one I particularly favor either. I've seen some put an "e" on the end as a form of ridicule of adoptive parents.
With respect to some of your other points, its impossible to read all the materials you put down in a short amount of time. I did read some of them and I will make a few comments.
1. The literature on the situation in Vietnam was pretty awful. Something had to be done and it was done. The USA stopped adoptions from that country.
2. How many of these articles are written pre-Hague Convention--or pre-implementation of the Treaty? If you don't acknowledge this treaty has significantly changed the international adoption situation you'd simply be wrong. The Hague Convention has greatly restricted international adoption and the abuses many of these articles refer too.
3. There's a supposition in your opinion and that is built into all these articles. That supposition is that the worst thing that could happen to a child is to be adopted via an "unethical adoption placement". I just disagree here and I think many others do. The worst thing that could happen to a child is to be raised in a country in an orphanage with little in the way of resources. Some of these countries have very high death rates for children ages 0-10 because there is very little in the way of medical care. That leaves out issues like ongoing guerrilla warfare, malnutrition, and non-existent public health facilities in much of the Third World. Not all the Third World countries are in this situation, but far too many are.
4. I distinguish "unethical situations" in the following way. Certainly, no one should allow a situation where children are literally being kidnapped to meet the needs of adoption. However, I don't necessarily regard it as problematic when poor mothers in these countries choose to place a child for adoption when they receive gifts of money and other commodities for doing so. Many people in our country are oblivious to high degree of poverty and deprivation in the developing world. This may well be a reasonable choice for a poor mother to make under the circumstances. I'm sure this will meet with controversy among some. However, we didn't create these conditions of poverty. They've just always existed.
5. These conditions of deprivation and poverty are not going to end anytime soon. They may not end in our lifetimes. In the meantime, there will be plenty of suffering children and poor mothers. Even if we had the resources to help all these people, the American taxpayer is never going to stand for it. He feels overtaxed and he worries too much about losing his social security and medicare benefits because those programs aren't adequately funded.
I'm sure your heart is in the right place. But bringing a virtual end to adoption isn't going to make the lives of poor women and children in developing nations any better. You may argue that "bringing a virtual end to adoption" is not what you are seeking. I will just say its clear from the diminished numbers of international adoptions that that is the direction we are moving in. Its just going to remove one more escape for a few people. I'm confident there are at least some women in these countries who place their children for adoption simply because they want a life for them that is not one of hopeless, grinding poverty.
A final consideration is that perhaps placing a few of these children for adoption stimulates awareness and understanding in the United States and Europe of countries like Ethiopia and China. The children peek our curiosity and it causes some to learn more about those countries. The adoption process may result in some valuable contacts between our nation and those countries. The more we are aware of those countries and their problems, the more we are likely to want to give our money and help them. Lack of contact and ignorance does not bring people close together and it does not create empathy.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
