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Old 09-29-2012, 08:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marymarym View Post
Here is what is interesting to me. Someone said on here that grieving the primal losses for life requires a diagnosis or something like that. one. For me, the grieving of my losses through adoption has been an experience of self-discovery. Yes, these losses are sad for me, but recognizing this has allowed me to grow and identify a part of myself. By truly realizing what I have lost, that my feelings are valid and what impact that has had on my lifeTo me, grieving losses through adoption is an entirely different experience than grieving the death of a loved is empowering, rather than crippling. It is something to be embraced and not dismissed. It is easy for those people that don't understand to to be so dismissive.

My brother died at a young age and I grieve his loss every day. (Yes, he has been passed more than 5 years). I don't think that grieving losses have a time limit and I miss him deeply every day. It is definitely a different type of grieving than the above, however neither is crippling or require a diagnosis.
You said that beautifully, MaryM, especially the bolded bit.

Also re your brother (((hugs)))
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Nim, some of the "nervous ticks" you describe might also be a form of "stimming", which is common in neglected children who do not get adequate stimulation from other sources. Many of the severely neglected children who are now starting to be adopted from a notorious Bulgarian orphanage "stim" - it can also be confused with autism, and is sometimes termed "institutional autism", which is quite different from other forms of autism, though the behaviors may look identical.

For lack of anything else to do or anyone to interact with, a child will often use moving their hands in repeated patterns as a way of passing the time. Self-rocking, head-banging, hair-twisting, scratching, rubbing, jerking parts of the body are all common forms of stimming in children who've been deprived of adequate human contact and toys or any other form of activity, particularly if they've also been confined to cribs for hours upon end, day after day...it can be heartbreaking to witness such little ones, trying desperately to give themselves some form of stimulation in their bleak existence.

From what you've told us, I'd guess that your ticks actually got their start when you were a small child, living in the orphanage.
Oh God, I still rock to this day! Lol.

When I went back to visit my orphanage, all the children were in cribs all day long, just like you described.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:49 PM
 
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WHY are the children left in cribs all day? Why are they not allowed to play freely? Surely all of them don't have disabilities. If they were allowed to move freely they would at least find one another and meet some of their need for physical contact. They could play, touch and hug one another.

That is extremely depressing to think about.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winterbird View Post
WHY are the children left in cribs all day? Why are they not allowed to play freely? Surely all of them don't have disabilities. If they were allowed to move freely they would at least find one another and meet some of their need for physical contact. They could play, touch and hug one another.

That is extremely depressing to think about.
I think because the caretakers are overworked with laundry and cooking, etc. When I visited, the floors were sticky because they hadn't swept or mopped in so long.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:52 PM
 
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Sadly it's that way in many orphanages, many yrs ago one of the news shows had hidden cameras in one of the Asian orphanages (China I believe but am not positive), the poor kids laid on their backs all day, no toys, no cuddling, no stimulation - did get fed and changed but not often at all - if I remember right, there was a 'dying room' where frail sickly babies were - it was awful and ppl were horrified - hopefully the situation has changed but I bet it exists in many countries where there are a lot of children and few underpaid workers. Have seen some pictures of the bathrooms in some of the E Eur. countries (outhouses, using the term 'bathrooms' loosely) - it's just very very sad and yet it's so difficult (and expensive) to adopt (I can understand rules and regulations but not everyone can visit 2 or 3 times for wks w/ no promise of being able to adopt anyway).
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Out West
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizita View Post
This is something I've been thinking about and I was wondering if anyone knows of any studies on the subject or have a good theory about it.
Quote:
Clearly, as is obvious by reading some posts on this site and the many adoptee blogs and sites out there, many adoptees are emotionally harmed by their adoption.
What do you mean, "emotionally harmed"? What does that mean? Just because they were adopted? No.

Quote:
Some feel abandoned, sold like a commodity or had something stolen from them.
Not just because they were adopted but perhaps because WHY they were adopted. We can't just say it's because of adoption, alone.

Quote:
They hurt from the loss of their original family.
Maybe when they are very young because they don't understand but again, not all feel this way. It depends on WHY the person was adopted.

Quote:
I'm curious if these feelings are caused by nature or nurture. Basically, is it the knowledge that they are adopted that brings on these feelings or is it something deeper like a biological reaction to the loss of their birthmother?
I think in the beginning, it might be nature. (Depending on the age of the adoptee.) If one is so young they don't really comprehend what is going on or why, they can still want to be with their biological family no matter how terrible they may have been.

On the other hand, some are so young when they are adopted, they don't know any different so nature wouldn't play a role at all.

How the adopted family nurtures the adopted child is what can make the difference in how the child feels about being adopted.

Quote:
I can imagine that the knowledge that you are adopted may make you feel that your mother didn't want you
She didn't want me. She said she didn't want me. It was quoted and their actions made it very clear that they did not want me. It was nothing about "feeling", they did not want me. Fact.

Quote:
or that you are missing out on a bond with people who are related to you by blood, etc.
Yes, there is that. Again, though, it depends on the age and the circumstances of the adoption. For me, I was very young but old enough to remember my siblings and not getting to know anything about them until I was 18 was unfair, I thought. (Closed adoption.) Yes, I did miss that bond. What can I do about that? Nothing.

Quote:
I'm wondering though that if you didn't know that you were adopted would you still have these feelings?
There is no possible way to know the answer to this if someone knows they are adopted or doesn't know they are adopted.

Quote:
Or is the knowledge of the adoption irrelevant and it is in fact biological and subconscious reasons behind the feelings? Is there a biological bond between mother and baby which would cause the baby emotional harm if that bond is severed?
No. Absolutely not. Some "mothers" have NO bond with their babies and emotional harm can actually be more severe if the baby stays with that "mother".

Quote:
Does it matter if it's the bio mom that takes care of the baby or is an adoptive mother who is there from the beginning (someone who were the main caretaker from birth) equal for the baby? Does the lack of a biological connection to the parents subconsciously cause problems as the child grows up?
I seriously doubt that. Again, if the adopted family is nurturing, what really matters to the child is that they have a mother and father who love them and care about them. That they have a place where they feel safe. They have a place where they are allowed to grow and learn. Just like any other kid. It doesn't have a thing to do with WHO is doing it as long as SOMEONE is doing it!

Quote:
What do you guys think? Does the emotional response to the adoption differ between kids who know they are adopted and those who don't? Is it nature or nurture?
I think you're trying to narrow something down in to a nice, neat little explanation and I don't think that's possible with adoption. There are far too many variables you aren't considering.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:48 AM
 
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Interesting study on non-adopted, internationally adopted (Korea), domestic adopted (infant without exposure in the womb) from Mn. The study included self report, parent report, and teacher report. Note I dislike the rhetorical well-adjusted because every single person can be well-adjusted and still have issues that will ebb and flow throughout life - be it infertility, chronic illness, adopted, etc.

http://www.creatingafamily.org/image...dolescents.pdf

I would grab a coffee first though because you need to read the entire study.

Nuture / Nature studies have shown it is about 50/50 and if interested I will find them.

Note I don't like studies on adoptees but the one linked above seems pretty independent of bias one way or the other. Unfortunately it is only looking at the adolescent phase (or snap shot) of the entire life cycle of being adopted.

WP article on the above study.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...97.html?sub=AR
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
On the other hand, some are so young when they are adopted, they don't know any different so nature wouldn't play a role at all.

How the adopted family nurtures the adopted child is what can make the difference in how the child feels about being adopted.
I was adopted after a few months & I have to say nature has played a very large role in who I am, regardless. I am just like my sister, despite very different upbringings. My parents were always very upfront about being adopted & always tried to explain things in a positive way for me, but I still felt abandoned & confused by the lack of information. It doesn't really matter what age you're adopted or how well you eventually adapt, there is always some sort of impact.
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Old 09-30-2012, 03:48 PM
 
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Back to those babies left in cribs for hours on end: many orphanages in eastern Europe have what are termed "lying-down rooms". Here, little ones are left to lie - only occasionally taken out to be changed, perhaps twice a day, or to be hastily swabbed down with a cold wet sponge before having clothing changed, perhaps once a week or so. Meals come in the form of bottles, sometimes reused beer bottles propped against the cribs' railings, often with the nipple's opening cut wider to expedite flow of whatever is inside - usually a sort of gruel-like concoction with oatmeal and tea mixed or perhaps a little yogurt and oatmeal.

Often the little ones are drugged, "for good sleep". It's not uncommon for sedatives intended for adults to be administered to them, with dire results - doped up, groggy children who if they are lucky enough to be adopted, either domestically (very, very rarely) or internationally, go into painful, scary withdrawal within the first 24 hours with their new families.

The babies and toddlers - and sometimes older children - who wind up in such places often have special needs, often things which have nothing whatsoever to do with mobility, such Down syndrome, blindness, etc. Or they might have visible facial effects of things like Apert syndrome or FAS/FAE, or they might genuinely have a health condition which limits their energy or mobility, such as a heart defect, or they might have a cleft palate, or CP, or arthrogryposis, or any number of other conditions which lead those in charge of making such decisions to determine that they would be best served by being banished to a "lying-down room".

So of course, those who are strong enough to survive such places, turn to their own bodies for stimulation. They rock, they bang their little heads, they twist their short-cropped hair, they poke their ears and eyes, they scratch themselves until the blood flows, they bite their hands, they suck their fingers, they flap their hands in front of their faces, they clutch their hands and twist them, they hum or groan...but they rarely cry, even when hurting more than usual, for they've learned that no one comes when they cry. Sometimes, if their stimming is too disturbing or if they self-harm, they may be tied into their cribs with their arms restrained. And there they lie, with absolutely nothing to do, to see, to hear - except the other children in the cribs beside them.

They are "fed" on schedule - usually - and changed on schedule, too, maybe twice a day, whether they "need it or not". They are left to lie in their waste until the scheduled change. Sometimes disposable diapers, always in short supply, are rinsed out and reused. Not necessarily on the same child.

Typically, the caregivers are either afraid of harming these fragile children - who have become increasingly fragile with such treatment - or they are overworked, or they just don't care, or they have become numb to such sights and sounds and smells. The better caregivers do smile and talk to the little ones, and perhaps may caress their heads a little or pat them gently when they are sponged down or changed...but with few caregivers and many children, time is short and resources are shorter.

Take a look at the older entries ( April and May, 2010) for accounts of the adoptions of Hailee and Harper, from just such a lying down room in Ukraine, a few years ago, and look at them now, on their mother's blog, which can be found at No Greater Joy Mom. Both little girls have Down syndrome and both are thriving now, despite the severe neglect they endured for years. Their family is presently in the midst of preparing to adopt two additional children, a little boy with Down syndrome and an older girl with severe CP who is presently in the Pleven Orphanage in Bulgaria - take a look at the conditions she's surviving, too. I will be so thankful when every child on the top floor of Pleven is out of that place. Pleven is one of the worst of the worst, and it's better than it once was and improving now, but still has far to go. The place where Hailee and Harper were confined is more typical of the poorer orphanages - not institutions, which can be worse - in much of Eastern Europe, and the treatment they received there is not unusual. Both little girls were given up by their biological parents at or shortly after their births, as I recall.

Last edited by CraigCreek; 09-30-2012 at 04:04 PM..
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Out West
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
I was adopted after a few months & I have to say nature has played a very large role in who I am, regardless. I am just like my sister, despite very different upbringings. My parents were always very upfront about being adopted & always tried to explain things in a positive way for me, but I still felt abandoned & confused by the lack of information. It doesn't really matter what age you're adopted or how well you eventually adapt, there is always some sort of impact.
Impact, yes. Emotional harm? No.

By the way, I have now refound my siblings and we have a few similarities but overall, we are nothing alike.
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