U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting > Adoption
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-07-2012, 08:02 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,603,669 times
Reputation: 12532

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
Well, I took my OBC seriously because without it, I wouldn't have known the name of my bmother. For many of us, that is the only way we might find out their name which gives us the choice of whether to try and locate them or not. You yourself said you were able to find a picture of your bmother online, which you wouldn't have been able to do without knowing her name.

Did you get the name off your OBC or did your aparents know it already? Perhaps for those who already have the names of their bparents from elsewhere, an OBC might not necessarily mean the same thing but we should all have the right to be able to have it. I am fortunate to have been born in a country where the records have been unsealed since 1987 - society hasn't collapsed. Many have applied for their OBCs, many have not, it is a personal choice but it is a choice that they are allowed to make themselves rather than the government making it for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MirrenC View Post
I don't think a piece of paper defines who I am, either. I don't think anyone here said that it did.

But the idea of a government saying I can have that piece of paper, or not, is irritating as hell to me. I am glad that I was able to get my non-identifying information, although the half about my father was made up (as I found out, 15 years later). I was *not* thrilled that the state required me, as an adult, to get notarized permission slips from my aparents first, as though I were a minor and unable to make up my mind for myself about what I was able to know/handle.
This is a general reply to several posts.

I am not saying people shouldn't have access to their birth certificates. I do think everyone should have access. I also don't like the idea that the government has control over whether you can look at your own birth certificate or not. I support opening access to birth certificates. I support giving people the choice.

The only point I am trying to make is that legal paperwork is far from perfect, and sometimes that includes your original birth certificate. I've noticed on these forums that people who don't have access to their birth certificates often speak about their birth certificates as if they're the one ticket to the TRUTH.

But even an original birth certificate might not necessarily have the truth written down on it. Even if one day you have access, don't be surprised if it is just as unreliable as your falsified birth certificate.

Sometimes you have to accept that you might never know the truth. You might have to accept that even if you do gain access someday.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-07-2012, 08:10 AM
 
39 posts, read 25,236 times
Reputation: 39
How do you prove genealogy though if not through birth certificates, and marriage certificates for that matter? It's all very well to say it's what's in your heart that counts but the actual legal document matters too. There is no DNA data bank that we all have access to so how do you propose it be proven legally. It's fine that you don't care about yours but I strongly disagree with you about the relevance of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 08:17 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,857,322 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
You equate a piece of paper with your actual genealogy? I didn't say that your genetics aren't important, I just don't understand why your birth certificate is so important.

I think the father's name on my birth certificate was made up. If it wasn't, it's a lot more disturbing and in that case my genetics would not be something I would want to look into anymore.

People just write stuff down to write stuff down on birth certificates sometimes. My Russian documents have made up diseases on them. The U.S. government accidentally gave me a driver's license for about two weeks when I asked for an updated picture ID, when I was legally blind and legally dead. They handed me a driver's license with no vision test, no driving test, and no medical proof of being able to see--after my eye doctor had reported me totally blind just a few months earlier--and all the while someone had reported me dead a few weeks earlier (probably cause I ran away from an abusive situation and was hiding from my abuser). And the only reason I even found out about that error is because I applied for a passport and the passport agency called my dad with their condolences. I had to have a background check done and had the government make me go through an intense questioning process in order to sort it all out.

Anyway the point of that story is that paperwork is just paperwork. People think that it somehow proves a reality, but the only reality is in your heart. There are sham marriages and sham adoptions, and college degrees from colleges that are a joke. There are people who have been in love for decades who can't marry legally, people who consider another person their family without any legal adoption, and people who have vast amounts of knowledge with no degree to back it up. Do you think you are alone in not having some sort of paper proof? Do you really want to let it dictate you so strongly? A birth certificate is not the same as your actual genealogy, just as a marriage license is not the same as two people in love, and an adoption certificate is not the same as the love a parent has for their child.
I'm slightly confused in that I am not sure whether you are:

1) addressing the birth certificate question to those who already knew their bparents names but who also want a copy of the birth certificate; or

2) whether you are addressing it to anyone who wants their birth certificate including those who hope to find out their bparents name.

I got my birth certificate because I wanted to know the name of my bmother. To me, my birth certificate is important because it is providing information I never knew. I am assuming that the majority of people applying for their OBC do so to get that information. I also received information re my adoption which I find more fascinating in itself because it is about the time of my birth. In my case, it seems very accurate and in fact, I think my bmom's siblings have learnt some things from it. So to me, getting my OBC was a big deal because it provided me with information. I did nothing about it for 20 years but I was glad to be able to have it, read for when I was ready to do something about it.

However, I'm getting the impression that perhaps you already knew the name of your bmother before getting a copy of your birth certificate which is perhaps why you are asking why it is important in itself if one is not acquiring it to get information about their bmother?

I suspect it is more the principle of the matter. I've had the right to be able to get my OBC from NZ for 25 years. I am sure there are many adoptees who have no wish to get their OBCs but are glad that others have had the right to do so.

Last edited by susankate; 10-07-2012 at 08:33 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 08:32 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,857,322 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
This is a general reply to several posts.

I am not saying people shouldn't have access to their birth certificates. I do think everyone should have access. I also don't like the idea that the government has control over whether you can look at your own birth certificate or not. I support opening access to birth certificates. I support giving people the choice.

The only point I am trying to make is that legal paperwork is far from perfect, and sometimes that includes your original birth certificate. I've noticed on these forums that people who don't have access to their birth certificates often speak about their birth certificates as if they're the one ticket to the TRUTH.

But even an original birth certificate might not necessarily have the truth written down on it. Even if one day you have access, don't be surprised if it is just as unreliable as your falsified birth certificate.

Sometimes you have to accept that you might never know the truth. You might have to accept that even if you do gain access someday.
I'm sorry that your Russian documents are such a mess.

I think we do all realise that OBCs may not necessarily be accurate, especially if false names are used. So some people have tried to find their bfamilies and it has been impossible because the name is wrong on the OBC.

I've heard about bmothers using false names so I was prepared to accept that there was a small chance that the name on my OBC might not be my bmom's real name. However, by googling her name and cross-checking with electoral rolls re info on obituaries (which confirmed that she had the same number of siblings as in the info I had) and doing as much research as I could, I did confirm that the name on the OBC did belong to a real person and there is stuff on the info that seems to stuff that only the real person themselves would know. Also, I did contact her host family and attached a photo and they confirmed that it was the girl they knew.

I've never said knowing my bfamily is the be all and end all. I do think knowing bfamily and knowing about my bmom has helped put things in context and that I do think genetics/biology is important to some degree but have never said it was everything. However, at the same time, I don't think it is nothing.

Sometimes you have to accept that you might never know the truth. You might have to accept that even if you do gain access someday

I never will know all the truth about my birth/adoption etc and am at peace with that but I will never begrudge anyone who is able to so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 08:55 AM
 
125 posts, read 131,513 times
Reputation: 110
I think I made it absolutely clear that there were lies on my non-identifying information, and that I have no idea who my father is at this time, although I am trying to find out. I accept that I may never know. I have written before that there is a great deal of fantasy, then and now.

Many adoptees grow up with questions and those questions are never solved.

An OBC has names on it; mine for certain doesn't have my father's name anyway! My mother told me that. So getting it won't help me find him. It's the principle of the government withholding it from me. I am already reunited.

There is the issue of search and the issue of our OBCs that often gets intertwined. Some opponents want to prevent us from getting our OBCs because they think we will harrass our mothers when we get our OBCs. I see it as a right that we should have, just like anyone else, to our own information.

Perhaps you are saying that you don't want adoptees to be hurt by thinking that there is a TRUTH with capital letters out there. When there are many people involved, there will be lots of emotions and potential conflict. We must all be prepared for anything when we search, that is true. Sometimes we will never be reunited with our families, or our original parents will have passed away before we can meet them, as happened to a dear friend this week when he finally was "granted" his non-identifying information (after a stalling social worker retired/quit and a new one actually would do her job). Sometimes we might be able to know our entire truth, and that is quite magical, as susankate said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 09:36 AM
 
1,024 posts, read 984,837 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
The fact of the matter is I wasn't born into ideal circumstances. Why obsess over a life I never had? Thinking in terms of what "could have" happened takes too much energy, and fosters resentment and anger.
I'm not saying you should obsess over a life you never had -- & I certainly don't do that. I'm also not saying you shouldn't be glad you were removed from the orphanage, or really that you shouldn't feel whatever you feel -- because feelings are feelings & they're all okay. What I'm saying is no one should have to feel grateful they were adopted & that to me, personally, it is a sad thing to feel grateful for. All children deserve better than that, even if it could be worse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 09:53 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,857,322 times
Reputation: 1462
If anyone on hear wants to know whether I have a positive adoption story, my answer is as follows:

First of all, if you are asking whether I am glad that I was adopted as opposed to remaining in foster care, living in an institution or a group home, then yes, I am glad I was adopted.

If you are asking, if I am happy being adopted by my adoptive parents, I have never felt unsafe or unloved, so yes I am happy that they are my adoptive parents.

If you are asking whether I am happy about being born into one (non-specified) family and raised in another as opposed to being born and raised in the one (non-specified) family, then I would much prefer to have been born and raised in the one (non-specified) family. However, this is just an honest answer and I do in fact accept that things are as they are.

If you are asking whether I am glad that my adoptive family raised me rather than my biological family, I cannot really answer that because how can one know. I refuse to lie and say either way because I cannot know the answer. That is not “putting down” my adoptive family, it is pertaining to the quality of my biological family. Again, this is just an honest answer.

If you are asking whether I am glad that the adoption scene in the 50-70s was such that a large number of women relinquished their babies due to lack of support and other pressures then no, I'm not. If you are asking whether I am glad that large numbers of married couples were able to adopt back then because of those women relinquishing, then no I'm not - not because I hate those married couples but because I don't believe the end justifies the means.

So really, it is quite a hard question to answer in a simple way as you can see.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 09:59 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,603,669 times
Reputation: 12532
Quote:
Originally Posted by keribus72 View Post
How do you prove genealogy though if not through birth certificates, and marriage certificates for that matter? It's all very well to say it's what's in your heart that counts but the actual legal document matters too. There is no DNA data bank that we all have access to so how do you propose it be proven legally. It's fine that you don't care about yours but I strongly disagree with you about the relevance of it.
What if someone just wrote down another name on your original birth certificate? Then what?

Then I guess DNA is all you would have to resort to (if you had the resources). Or you would have to just accept not knowing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 10:01 AM
 
203 posts, read 200,015 times
Reputation: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky View Post
Sometimes you have to accept that you might never know the truth. You might have to accept that even if you do gain access someday.
I was fortunate to have found both of my natural parents without having to pay Catholic Charities (The charge for this "service" was $250 back in 1998; if my mother wanted nothing to do with me, the agency would keep my money and not tell me anything) or go through any sort of official channels.

I petitioned the court for my original birth certificate AFTER I already knew all the information contained on it. Why? Because it is mine. And as an adult, the government should not treat me differently than other citizens simply due to the fact that I was adopted as a child. My dad and I also wanted to know if he was listed on it. He is not despite the fact that his identity was well-known to all of those who conspired to place me for adoption against his will.

The bottom line is that our original birth certificates belong to us. And it is not the business of the state government or general public what we may, or may not, do with the information on our own factual birth certificates. As adults, we are perfectly capable of managing our own affairs and determining what is in our best interests.

Nim, you wrote:

"You equate a piece of paper with your actual genealogy? I didn't say that your genetics aren't important, I just don't understand why your birth certificate is so important."

I do not believe that anyone has indicated that they equate a piece of paper with their actual genealogy. And really, adoptees should not have to justify or clarify why they should have the same access to the same information as all non-adoptees. The adoption industry and the state governments MAKE my original birth certificate important to me simply by telling me that I can't have it. They are the ones propagating lies and falsifying documents. Not me. And I do not have to justify why I want my own birth certificate. That's my personal business.

And really. I would certainly have exhausted all avenues of discovery before accepting any sort of not knowing. I was fortunate in that for the cost of postage stamp to send in a form to a volunteer registry, my dad and I were reunited. He had registered with the same registry several years before I did. He told me everything I needed to know about my mother (her name, where she lived, etc.), ancestry and heritage. So I will never have to accept not knowing. And instead of questioning the motives of my fellow adoptees or asking them to justify why something is important to them, I choose instead to support them in whatever it is they need to do. I would not ask them why their birth certificate is so important them. I would accept and respect that it is important to them--and I will advocate for all adoptees to have the same access to the original record of their birth (regardless of what may or may not be included on it) as all non-adoptees. The onus should not be on the adoptees to justify anything. The adoption industry and state government need to justify to adoptees why it is in our best interests to falsify our birth certificates and withhold the original from us.

Last edited by gcm7189; 10-07-2012 at 10:11 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-07-2012, 10:02 AM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,603,669 times
Reputation: 12532
Quote:
Originally Posted by MirrenC View Post
I think I made it absolutely clear that there were lies on my non-identifying information, and that I have no idea who my father is at this time, although I am trying to find out. I accept that I may never know. I have written before that there is a great deal of fantasy, then and now.

Many adoptees grow up with questions and those questions are never solved.

An OBC has names on it; mine for certain doesn't have my father's name anyway! My mother told me that. So getting it won't help me find him. It's the principle of the government withholding it from me. I am already reunited.

There is the issue of search and the issue of our OBCs that often gets intertwined. Some opponents want to prevent us from getting our OBCs because they think we will harrass our mothers when we get our OBCs. I see it as a right that we should have, just like anyone else, to our own information.

Perhaps you are saying that you don't want adoptees to be hurt by thinking that there is a TRUTH with capital letters out there.
When there are many people involved, there will be lots of emotions and potential conflict. We must all be prepared for anything when we search, that is true. Sometimes we will never be reunited with our families, or our original parents will have passed away before we can meet them, as happened to a dear friend this week when he finally was "granted" his non-identifying information (after a stalling social worker retired/quit and a new one actually would do her job). Sometimes we might be able to know our entire truth, and that is quite magical, as susankate said.
That's exactly the point I am trying to make. There may never be a truth, that you can find. Obviously there is one truth of what happened, but you might never know it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting > Adoption
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:40 PM.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top