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Old 10-10-2012, 04:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Tiffjoy, I didn't read what you did into Mark's post. I thought that he was remarking more upon out-of-wedlock births and the rise of unmarried women with babies. Now it seems to be pretty common place, at least in my neck of the woods.

Here is where I have the problem and this is watching several of my friends who are in their 50s and 60s raising their grandkids because their daughters just don't have the interest. Some of these young women are extremely casual about sex, boyfriends and having babies. I've personally watched a handful of these girls treat their babies like an accessory, sort of like those little dogs the celebrities carry around in their handbags. My friend was telling me about one baby being passed back and forth to the uninterested daddy boyfriend who was annoyed that he had to watch the kid, to the various sets of grandparents or whatever friend was available. In my opinion, the priority of some of these young girls was more clubbing and less parenting. This is really getting away from the topic of adoption though and more on what I've observed with a handful of young girls. Many of these families are a bit on the lower income side and they are receiving assistance from the state.

I know that there are thousands of single moms out there trying to do the best for their kids. Where I have problems are with young girls having children almost as a casual oops, I'm pregnant. My friend Susie and Beth and Jane all have their babies, guess it would be cool to have one too!! Fast forward 9 months later----grandma is supporting and mothering the child. Oh and btw, many of these young girls are just as casual about using birthcontrol. Some of them had multiple abortions before having their child.

Again, my comments aren't really adoption related but more along the lines of what I've been seeing and it really bothers me. As their child grows up, the cycle has a good chance of repeating. But this doesn't have anything to do with adoption and it is time to get my son off to his piano lesson!!
It is not an ideal situation. But for anyone but an adoptee to claim that adoption is better than being raised by a single parent is unacceptable and unsupportable. ONLY they (and children raised by single parents) know whether or not that is true.

It is this very attitude, that of deciding which birth parents are worthy of raising their own children, that lead to the stolen generation. There is NOTHING that suggests the outcomes for adopted children are better than those of children raised by single and/or young parents. And in all honesty, it is apparent from the posts from a small portion of the APs on this board that they feel entitled to children which are not theirs because they feel they are better parents.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:21 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Tiffjoy, I didn't read what you did into Mark's post. I thought that he was remarking more upon out-of-wedlock births and the rise of unmarried women with babies. Now it seems to be pretty common place, at least in my neck of the woods.

Here is where I have the problem and this is watching several of my friends who are in their 50s and 60s raising their grandkids because their daughters just don't have the interest. Some of these young women are extremely casual about sex, boyfriends and having babies. I've personally watched a handful of these girls treat their babies like an accessory, sort of like those little dogs the celebrities carry around in their handbags. My friend was telling me about one baby being passed back and forth to the uninterested daddy boyfriend who was annoyed that he had to watch the kid, to the various sets of grandparents or whatever friend was available. In my opinion, the priority of some of these young girls was more clubbing and less parenting. This is really getting away from the topic of adoption though and more on what I've observed with a handful of young girls. Many of these families are a bit on the lower income side and they are receiving assistance from the state.

I know that there are thousands of single moms out there trying to do the best for their kids. Where I have problems are with young girls having children almost as a casual oops, I'm pregnant. My friend Susie and Beth and Jane all have their babies, guess it would be cool to have one too!! Fast forward 9 months later----grandma is supporting and mothering the child. Oh and btw, many of these young girls are just as casual about using birthcontrol. Some of them had multiple abortions before having their child.

Again, my comments aren't really adoption related but more along the lines of what I've been seeing and it really bothers me. As their child grows up, the cycle has a good chance of repeating. But this doesn't have anything to do with adoption and it is time to get my son off to his piano lesson!!
Linmora, what you have presented is just a small snippet based on what you see and process. And it's not that there's anything wrong with that as long as you balance it out with what you don't see and what you are not actively taking into account.

Yes, some young mothers are not the best moms. This is what you see and have stated.

What you either are not seeing or are not taking into account is the following:

Some older moms are not the best moms.

Some married, SAHM moms are not the best moms.

Some single, WOHM moms are not the best moms.

Some rich moms are not the best moms.

Some poor moms are not the best moms.

Some adoptive moms are not the best moms.

I could go on, but I think you see what I am saying? Being a good or bad mom is not based on age, socioeconomic status, income level, work status, marital status, or biological relationship to the child (thinking of adoptive moms, grandmothers who are primary caregivers, aunts who have taken in nieces and nephews....). Being a good mom is an individual thing. It is also not concrete. Some moms would think I am not a good mom because I work while others think moms who formula feed are not good moms. I think there are some clear definitions of bad when it comes to emotionally or physically abusive situations, but otherwise, it is simply one person's opinion vs another's.

Single, young women are completely capable of being good moms. As I said in a previous post, I believe that given assistance from family members or a parenting counselor, teens can be excellent mothers to their children. I would also not hesitate to say that in some cases, I question the grown adults in the situations you are mentioning. Should one of my daughters get pregnant at a young age and become a young mother, I would help her understand her responsibilities to her child. While I would have no problem babysitting while she went to school or work or an occasional evening out with friends, I would not support the lifestyle you mentioned above. Becoming a mother as a teen is not easy, and I don't know that anyone would claim it is. (Heck, it's not easy as an adult!) Guidance and counseling is absolutely necessary for teen mothers, along with lots of support.

The getting pregnant because a friend does thing is something that although it happens, it is not as common as people think it is. Four out of five teen pregnancies are unintended (Source). Teens are less likely to use birth control (Source) . I think the getting pregnant because Susie did is more the stuff of Lifetime movies and sensational news stories than real life.

I do not dispute that teen pregnancy is an issue that needs to be addressed. I also don't dispute that teen moms have a greater challenge ahead of them. That is why I believe there needs to be available support and assistance. Although there are obviously going to be a proportion of teen parents who do not feel able to keep their child, there will be those that would, given the right support. And lack of resources or income level should not be the reason a child is separated from parents.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:23 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,159,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The rate of out-of-wedlock births has skyrocketed in the last 40 years. Its gone up by 400% and if you want statistics to prove it, I'll get them. More importantly, dependency upon government assistance by these groups has jumped markedly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Actually the rate of teen pregnancy has decreased for the last two decades.

Teen Pregnancy Declines, But U.S. Still Lags : NPR
U.S. teen pregnancy rates at an all-time low across all ethnicities - HealthPop - CBS News

The number of women/single parents on welfare has also steadily declined.

The Census Bureau
Phyllis Schlafly Debunked: Single-Parent Household Share of Welfare Recipients on the Decline | The People's View

Sorry but I am going to go with the Feds on this over you.

So you can judge all you like but it isn't based on reality in the slightest.

Note: I'm not taking sides on this, but for the sake of accuracy -- Mark said "out of wedlock births," NOT teenage births as you're citing. Also, the Schlafly article doesn't address the *number* of welfare recipients. Rather, it says that the "proportion" of single mother welfare recipients has declined in comparison to two-parent household recipients. Finally, the Mother Jones article says, as I interpret it, that the *value* of cash benefits has gone down over time, not that people are leaving or being removed from welfare rolls.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:38 PM
 
16,671 posts, read 14,110,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
Note: I'm not taking sides on this, but for the sake of accuracy -- Mark said "out of wedlock births," NOT teenage births as you're citing. Also, the Schlafly article doesn't address the *number* of welfare recipients. Rather, it says that the "proportion" of single mother welfare recipients has declined in comparison to two-parent household recipients. Finally, the Mother Jones article says, as I interpret it, that the *value* of cash benefits has gone down over time, not that people are leaving or being removed from welfare rolls.
Not taking sides, even though I am the only one who posted actual sources. Gotcha.

"The welfare reform literature reveals many positive changes: reduced poverty rates, lower out-of-wedlock childbearing, greater family stability, and little indication of more spouse abuse or child neglect."

Additionally the number of recipients decreased 53% from 1996 to 2000. And continued to do so until 2008 (a little thing called the recession).

So if the overall number of welfare recipients went down, AND the proportion of single parents on welfare went down, than Marks "point" is disproven. As is the idea that there are more children born out of wedlock AND on welfare.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

The majority of children born in nonmarital relationships are NOT born to mothers on or going on welfare.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:46 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,159,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Not taking sides, even though I am the only one who posted actual sources. Gotcha.

"The welfare reform literature reveals many positive changes: reduced poverty rates, lower out-of-wedlock childbearing, greater family stability, and little indication of more spouse abuse or child neglect."

Additionally the number of recipients decreased 53% from 1996 to 2000. And continued to do so until 2008 (a little thing called the recession).

So if the overall number of welfare recipients went down, AND the proportion of single parents on welfare went down, than Marks "point" is disproven. As is the idea that there are more children born out of wedlock AND on welfare.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

The majority of children born in nonmarital relationships are NOT born to mothers on or going on welfare.
No, I'm NOT taking sides. That's a different source than you cited before, and the earlier ones didn't back up your claim.

Thanks for clarifying.

ETA: I hate to bring this up, but this citation is an article published in 2002. Ten-year-old data is rather meaningless at this point -- yes?
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:58 PM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,850,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
It is not an ideal situation. But for anyone but an adoptee to claim that adoption is better than being raised by a single parent is unacceptable and unsupportable. ONLY they (and children raised by single parents) know whether or not that is true.

It is this very attitude, that of deciding which birth parents are worthy of raising their own children, that lead to the stolen generation. There is NOTHING that suggests the outcomes for adopted children are better than those of children raised by single and/or young parents. And in all honesty, it is apparent from the posts from a small portion of the APs on this board that they feel entitled to children which are not theirs because they feel they are better parents.
My remarks weren't really on adoption per se but what I've seen with young girls (not teens) having babies in a pretty casual way---in my area. That is why I carefully prefaced my statement. I was responding more to the comments made to Mark. I don't think anyone is claiming that adoption is better than being raised my a single parent and I firmly don't think that Mark was saying this either. There are many wonderful single parents out there and no one is advocating that they take their babies away from them. To imply that APs want to do this is a bit unfair. I certainly hope that you don't feel this about me? Do you?

@Tiffjoy, yeah, my remarks are based on a bit of depression I have with a number of these young women having babies rather casually and I'm feeling the angst of my friend who is the primary caregiver of her granddaughter. She has related stories of a number of other young women doing the same thing in her area. Something must be in the water in our area, lol. They aren't teens but gals in their 20s. It is easy to say that you won't condone their lifestyle but when you are put into the situation of raising your grandchild, I would suspect that do everything in your power to raise that child, especially if the daughter is too frickin' irresponsible to parent. I would probably do the same thing. Hopefully some day, her daughter will grow up and assume the responsibilites of parenting. I do understand that not all women make good mothers and single women are quite capable of being good mothers. Again my comment was more my personal experience and a bit off from adoption. And of course, these are a few snippets of my experience and more of a venting of frustration.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:05 PM
 
16,671 posts, read 14,110,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
No, I'm NOT taking sides. That's a different source than you cited before, and the earlier ones didn't back up your claim.

Thanks for clarifying.

ETA: I hate to bring this up, but this citation is an article published in 2002. Ten-year-old data is rather meaningless at this point -- yes?
OK so mark can make claims based on "40 years" worth of "statistics" and I post something that negates 30 years of that and my point is meaningless.

There was this little economic blip called the recession, it obviously sent a few more people on the dole than in prior years. The fact that it sent mostly families also negates marks point but still, ONLY I am called out for it. At least there is consistency, of a sort.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:05 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,159,487 times
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According to the CDC, almost 41% of ALL births are to unmarried women. (See Table 15 on page 70 of the pdf document.)

I believe you're correct, though, that "Welfare Reform" has caused a number of families -- including those headed by single women -- off public assistance.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 10-10-2012 at 06:20 PM..
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:08 PM
 
16,671 posts, read 14,110,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
My remarks weren't really on adoption per se but what I've seen with young girls (not teens) having babies in a pretty casual way---in my area. That is why I carefully prefaced my statement. I was responding more to the comments made to Mark. I don't think anyone is claiming that adoption is better than being raised my a single parent and I firmly don't think that Mark was saying this either. There are many wonderful single parents out there and no one is advocating that they take their babies away from them. To imply that APs want to do this is a bit unfair. I certainly hope that you don't feel this about me? Do you?
I haven't seen enough of your posts to know you one way or another. But the adoptive parents who harp about fallacies about single parents being on welfare, and how teen mothers are "losers" (and yes that is a direct quote) have made it clear that they think it is better to take children from "losers" on welfare and give them to people who can't have their own children.

After all, according to these people half of the "purpose" of adoption is to give children to infertile couples. Again, THEIR WORDS not mine.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:10 PM
 
16,671 posts, read 14,110,185 times
Reputation: 20614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
According to the CDC, almost 41% of ALL birthsare to unmarried women. (See Table 15 on page 70 of the pdf document.)

I believe you're correct, though, that "Welfare Reform" has caused a number of families -- including those headed by single women -- off public assistance.
And I said teen mothers, because mark specifically gave them in his original scenarios. I NEVER said that there are less births out of wedlock. But there ARE less birth out of wedlock to women on welfare.
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