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Old 10-11-2012, 08:14 AM
 
509 posts, read 484,580 times
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I find it interesting that posters keep harping on one member to provide solutions when I provided some several posts back and have been repeatedly ignored.

It would appear Matk's primary interest is simply to argue. When someone answers with solutions, he just ignores them and continues to ask the same questions.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:24 AM
 
10 posts, read 10,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
I find it interesting that posters keep harping on one member to provide solutions when I provided some several posts back and have been repeatedly ignored.

It would appear Matk's primary interest is simply to argue. When someone answers with solutions, he just ignores them and continues to ask the same questions.
I am new and I must have missed your solutions. I thought I read a post where you listed what adoption agencies and families should do. Namely, provide more disclosures and support for parenting. You also mention that you demand that religions adjust their mores and accept and support unwed mothers.

I missed where you proposed a course of action to ensure all this would happen. Can you explain that again or point me to it?

Last edited by Catlover9; 10-11-2012 at 10:00 AM.. Reason: Address and acknowledge more points raised by tiff joy in her prior posts
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:25 AM
 
509 posts, read 484,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlover9 View Post
I am new and I must have missed your solutions. I thought I read a post where you listed what adoption agencies and families should do. Namely, provide more disclosures and support for parenting. You also mention that you demand that religions adjust their mores and accept and support unwed mothers.

I missed where you proposed a course of action to ensure all this would happen. Can you explain that again or point me to it?
Post #330 on page 33.

Mark asked many specific questions to which I responded. He then ignored the responses in favor of asking more questions. I didn't supply a direct course if action but answered his scenarios with ways to ensure ethics in those scenarios.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
Post #330 on page 33.

Mark asked many specific questions to which I responded. He then ignored the responses in favor of asking more questions. I didn't supply a direct course if action but answered his scenarios with ways to ensure ethics in those scenarios.
Yes, I read that. You offered your opinion on what you thought an ethical adoption would look like. What is the solution for making that happen?

I don't think Mark is ignoring you. Instead, it seems to me that Mark is conducting a linear analysis. He is embarking on analyzing what the ethical challenges are and how widespread they are. Both factors are important in assessing appropriate solutions.

I don't want to speak for Mark, but in my mind the analysis goes like this: If you want adoption reform, you need to:

(1) clearly identify what the reform is intended to remedy, so that it can be tailored to its purpose.

(2) determine whether a proposed reform is capable of being enforced so that it will be effective in accomplishing its purpose and

(3) most importantly, conduct a cost/benefit analysis on adopting and implementing the reform. (This involves putting the societal problem into perspective relative to other problems. It is necessary to evaluate its impact and how widespread it is to achieve this perspective.

If a societal problem is relatively uncommon and our nation faces challenges that are more widespread with greater impact, then it begs the question of how much time, energy, and money our government should invest in the uncommon problem at the expense of other problems with greater impact.
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
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Catlover9- Welcome to the forum.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 10-11-2012 at 03:52 PM..
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:53 PM
 
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Catlover9 ,welcome to the forum.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 10-11-2012 at 03:52 PM..
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:29 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlover9 View Post
Yes, I read that. You offered your opinion on what you thought an ethical adoption would look like. What is the solution for making that happen?

I don't think Mark is ignoring you. Instead, it seems to me that Mark is conducting a linear analysis. He is embarking on analyzing what the ethical challenges are and how widespread they are. Both factors are important in assessing appropriate solutions.

I don't want to speak for Mark, but in my mind the analysis goes like this: If you want adoption reform, you need to:

(1) clearly identify what the reform is intended to remedy, so that it can be tailored to its purpose.

(2) determine whether a proposed reform is capable of being enforced so that it will be effective in accomplishing its purpose and

(3) most importantly, conduct a cost/benefit analysis on adopting and implementing the reform. (This involves putting the societal problem into perspective relative to other problems. It is necessary to evaluate its impact and how widespread it is to achieve this perspective.

If a societal problem is relatively uncommon and our nation faces challenges that are more widespread with greater impact, then it begs the question of how much time, energy, and money our government should invest in the uncommon problem at the expense of other problems with greater impact.
I'm not quite certain how to respond to this. I don't think a cost/benefit analysis is necessary when determining to do the right thing. Perhaps I am too moral, but to me, the greatest cost is when good people choose to stand by and allow wrong doing to occur unchecked.

Are you against adoption reform? It seems that way from your post. Do you believe that there exists problems within the current way we conduct adoptions in this country?

If you are looking for me to say, "well, if there aren't a lot of issues, and they are limited to only a few agencies and a small number of adoptions, then there's no point in bothering," well, I won't say that. To my mind, when we are talking about the lives of children, there is nothing we should stop at to ensure that only the highest standards are in place to protect and serve one of the most vulnerable groups of our society.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:44 PM
 
10 posts, read 10,229 times
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Thank you, No Kudzu and Craigs Creek.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:50 PM
 
10 posts, read 10,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
I'm not quite certain how to respond to this. I don't think a cost/benefit analysis is necessary when determining to do the right thing. Perhaps I am too moral, but to me, the greatest cost is when good people choose to stand by and allow wrong doing to occur unchecked.

Are you against adoption reform? It seems that way from your post. Do you believe that there exists problems within the current way we conduct adoptions in this country?

If you are looking for me to say, "well, if there aren't a lot of issues, and they are limited to only a few agencies and a small number of adoptions, then there's no point in bothering," well, I won't say that. To my mind, when we are talking about the lives of children, there is nothing we should stop at to ensure that only the highest standards are in place to protect and serve one of the most vulnerable groups of our society.

I am trying to understand your position. You have expressed concern over ethical problems in adoption. You have described what you consider an ethical adoption to look like. I am asking how you propose to make that happen.

Are you seeking adoption reform in the form of legislation? Are you proposing that the government offer more domestic programs and aid to unwed mothers? Do you think the inherent competition between adoption agencies is enough to remedy the problem - namely, that a birthmother should demand independent counseling and simply seek another agency if her request is declined?

Depending on your answer, a cost/benefit analysis may not be needed. However, if you are talking about devoting resources to a particular issue, then you should realize that you are taking them away from someone else. Resources are finite.

For example, given the impoverished state of some nations, it seems morally right for our government to give them aid. However, is it MORE morally right than fulfilling our promises to our elderly through social security? Is it more morally right than providing benefits for our unemployed citizens? Is it more morally right than providing medical coverage to the children of the indigent through Medicaid?

Everything is a trade off.


Last edited by Catlover9; 10-11-2012 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:06 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,580 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catlover9 View Post
I am trying to understand your position. You have expressed concern over ethical problems in adoption. You have described what you consider an ethical adoption to look like. I am asking how you propose to make that happen.

Are you seeking adoption reform in the form of legislation? Are you proposing that the government offer more domestic programs and aid to unwed mothers? Do you think the inherent competition between adoption agencies is enough to remedy the problem - namely, that a birthmother should demand independent counseling and simply seek another agency if her request is declined?

The only way to ensure adoption agencies act in an ethical manner is to impose laws upon them with clear consequences should they not. Isn't that the only way to enforce that any company behave in a manner accepted by society? There are very few laws governing adoption agencies, and I believe most of these are tipped in favor of the adoptive parents.

For instance, in California, the relinquishment papers are signed before the mom leaves the hospital. She may leave after 24 hours if there are no complications, which means that is when the papers may be signed. I do not believe that law adequately protects the mother. I could hardly even stand 24 hours after I gave birth, let alone think coherently about life-changing legal decisions. And I do not believe a decision to place a child before birth necessarily means a mom does not feel differently after birth. Again, I speak from the point of view of having given birth and feeling like a completely different person before and after.

In our adoption, because it was an unusual case, our daughter's parents had 30 days in which to sign the papers. They took 24 of those days to heal from the birth, carefully weigh their decision, and make their choice. I would put forth that this should be the norm rather than the anomaly.

The right to an independent counselor should be enacted by laws. It is something that should be a matter of course. Agencies cannot counsel first mothers without being incredibly biased to the agency they work for. Instead, there should be an independent group that does not exist dependent upon any one agency. I would imagine it would be easiest to make this a government group within social services. I'm fairly certain that is the only way to keep it unbiased. If you are concerned about tax payer dollars, then we could get rid of the adoption tax credit except in cases of special needs adoptions (which it was originally designed for) or older children foster adoptions.
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