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Old 12-13-2012, 11:29 AM
 
509 posts, read 483,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Referring to the bolded part of your posts, yikes, who feels this way? I certainly don't as an adoptive parent. Sheena has her opinion---thus why she started this thread---and I don't feel as she does. I'm not sure what you described is what other adoptive parents feel either.

My emotions towards my kid's biological parents are very mixed but nothing like what you described. I keep my emotions to myself though since the circumstances of both of their adoptions are very sad. There was extreme abuse and neglect in both of our cases so saintly isn't in my vocubulary either. Each case is so different.
My take in my DDs other parents is very different too. But I've seen the attitude AdopteeWPD described as well. It's pretty common, actually.

As for first parents being saintly, well, I wouldn't use that word in most cases. I think sometimes first moms have no choice, or rather, they have severely limited options that feel like no choice. Some make a choice they believe is best for their child. Others have their children removed because they are not capable of patenting. That's not saintly either. In many cases, I think moms are trying to make the best choice they can.

I suppose what I resent is the insistence of APs on what their child's first parents are called. As you can see, I use other parent/mom/dad, plain old mom/dad, first parent/mom/dad. IRL, I use their names most frequently. I will respect whatever my DD chooses when she's older, and that's who I think gets to define terms. It's really her relationship, not mine. I will respect whatever she decides.

I would like to see far more support for emoms so that they can always be able to make a real choice, not just feel like they have no other choice than adoption. Some will of course still choose adoption, and they should be respected and not vilified for this choice. Others may be able to keep their baby if they were given the support they cannot get from those in their life. And others would still not be capable of being a parent.

Regardless of the situation, I think it's unfair and unrealistic to think that these moms walk away from their children easily or never suffer for their choice. I think that's what bugged me most about the OP. the idea that just because a first mom makes the choice for adoption means she then walks away and returns to her life unscathed and never thinks of her child again. I think in most cases, this just isn't true.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:31 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,840,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adopteeWPD View Post
Linmora, I would agree with you. I think there are many adoptive parents who don't feel that way either. In fact, I would say the majority of adoptive parents I know and call friends feel nothing like this, which I guess is partly why I'm so confused by the OP. My post was pertaining only to the use of the term "birth person" as presented in the original post.


"My emotions towards my kid's biological parents are very mixed but nothing like what you described. I keep my emotions to myself though since the circumstances of both of their adoptions are very sad. There was extreme abuse and neglect in both of our cases so saintly isn't in my vocubulary either. Each case is so different."

Can't figure out how to quote you in an edit, but I'm so sorry to hear that.
Yeah, I will never say a bad thing about their parents. I always sugar coat it a bit with "they couldn't take care of you but loved you very much." My daughter knows the full details and it is very hard for her as well as me and we are dealing with some pretty hard stuff through therapy these days. We have an assortment of other institution related issues with her so it is always challenging since she was an older child when she came home with us.

My son's case was just as sad. as I sit here writing this, my stomach is churning. The abuse and neglect boggles my mind but I will never say a bad thing about their biological parents. It is hard sometimes and I struggle but I've made good on my vow. They both know that they have two sets of parents.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Westside
128 posts, read 121,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
In having this attitude, though, you are deciding your children's perceptions for them. I choose to respect my daughter's first parents, involve them in our lives, and allow our daughter to grow up able to form her own beliefs as she develops them. Certainly, we are in a different situation as our daughter's other parents live close to us rather than continents away. But the intent is the same.

I would rather allow my daughter to form her own opinions than create them for her by making up words that aren't real about her parents. Or insisting they aren't her parents, when by definition (Webster's dictionary definition), they in fact are. She may choose what to call them, how they fit in her version of family, how she feels about their relinquishment of her. All of this, she can do with positive support from her dad and I rather than a negative view of where she came from.

Just my two cents. I understand you don't agree.
Good post. My first thought was not about the biological parents but rather "this poor little girl is being raised by someone so hostile." I don't know the back story here, but I think I would be thanking God for creating my child ... and the vessel that brought her to me.

My ex-husband has never been a "parent," but I would never speak poorly of him in front of my children, he's always referred to as "your dad," and I realize that I wouldn't have had my beautiful children if not for him. Children, when they're old enough, will make their own assessments about such things. I hope they forgive him his sins, accept him for the way he is, and have peace.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I'll go with saintly woman who chose life and sacrifice for her child -- in most cases I think that is the case.
My original mother is not a saint, nor would she want to be called one. She is a person who she made a mistake, got pregnant, and made some not-so-great choices. She didn't choose life for me. It was denial that took too long, coupled with vague religious guilt. She doesn't regret placing me, and she is glad that I've done well, but she doesn't see what she did as some great sacrifice that helped herself, me, or my parents. And please, please, please don't call me a gift.

The birthmother-as-saint who sacrificed is a stereotype, just opposite to the undeserving birthmother on drugs.

I'd be careful about making generalizations about women who place, their feelings, and their motivations; having met many, the spectrum is broad.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
My take in my DDs other parents is very different too. But I've seen the attitude AdopteeWPD described as well. It's pretty common, actually.

As for first parents being saintly, well, I wouldn't use that word in most cases. I think sometimes first moms have no choice, or rather, they have severely limited options that feel like no choice. Some make a choice they believe is best for their child. Others have their children removed because they are not capable of patenting. That's not saintly either. In many cases, I think moms are trying to make the best choice they can.

I suppose what I resent is the insistence of APs on what their child's first parents are called. As you can see, I use other parent/mom/dad, plain old mom/dad, first parent/mom/dad. IRL, I use their names most frequently. I will respect whatever my DD chooses when she's older, and that's who I think gets to define terms. It's really her relationship, not mine. I will respect whatever she decides.

I would like to see far more support for emoms so that they can always be able to make a real choice, not just feel like they have no other choice than adoption. Some will of course still choose adoption, and they should be respected and not vilified for this choice. Others may be able to keep their baby if they were given the support they cannot get from those in their life. And others would still not be capable of being a parent.

Regardless of the situation, I think it's unfair and unrealistic to think that these moms walk away from their children easily or never suffer for their choice. I think that's what bugged me most about the OP. the idea that just because a first mom makes the choice for adoption means she then walks away and returns to her life unscathed and never thinks of her child again. I think in most cases, this just isn't true.
Well I agree with you on all of this. Well said.

In spite of my kids' circumstances and my very mixed feelings, I do have sympathy for their biological parents. It would be heart wrenching to know that all your children are at the far ends of the earth and you probably will never see them again. I'm sure that their mother's think of them all the time and it is very sad.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:18 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,126,842 times
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I would never speak ill of the woman who birthed my daughter either.

This is way off topic. What I meant is that in my situation, in a closed adoption, that is international the term "birth parent" is not useful.

In terms of people who say that adoption is always "born of sadness" I disagree. There are consequences in life for the things that we do and the choices we make. I was raised this way and so were my children.

Unprotected premarital intercourse can result in a baby. That's a fact. My teenagers know this. I knew it.
Most adoptions are from this situation. My daughter's was.

I feel no guilt that I have adopted my daughter. I do not worry about the woman who birthed her. My daughter does not research it or want to look into it. Her only fear, which has passed was when she was about thirteen. That the woman would come looking for her and she would be forced to see her.

She was spooked by an adoption reunion show. We allayed her fears.

The other children that we are adopting come from a situation of abuse and neglect.. When parents abuse or neglect their kids, sometimes social services steps in and removes those children from their families of origin.
People who abuse their children have lost the right to be parents or to be called parents.

I do not think that per-marital sex is wrong. But not using protection is.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MirrenC View Post
My original mother is not a saint, nor would she want to be called one. She is a person who she made a mistake, got pregnant, and made some not-so-great choices. She didn't choose life for me. It was denial that took too long, coupled with vague religious guilt. She doesn't regret placing me, and she is glad that I've done well, but she doesn't see what she did as some great sacrifice that helped herself, me, or my parents. And please, please, please don't call me a gift.

The birthmother-as-saint who sacrificed is a stereotype, just opposite to the undeserving birthmother on drugs.

I'd be careful about making generalizations about women who place, their feelings, and their motivations; having met many, the spectrum is broad.
I suppose "saint" isn't quite the right term, but I think some of them made a very unselfish decision.

But you're right -- kids have been given up by their birth mothers since there have been kids. Not all kids who lived in orphanages were actually orphans. I know of several mothers who left older children either with their own parents or with a husband because they met some guy who didn't want kids around or they wanted freedom. Even that doesn't mean they don't love their children, they probably do, they just aren't cut out for the raising of children.

I stopped judging them when I talked at a party with a woman who had left her two daughters with her father and his wife to raise because her boyfriend wanted to relocate. She married this guy and had all kinds of drama -- they both drank and had a volatile relationship. I asked her if she didn't miss her kids and she teared up and said she missed them a lot but look at her life -- she could not drag her kids out of what was a stable home with her dad and step-mother and move them around and put them through the kind of life she was living. She said they're better off where they are even if she can only see them once every couple of years. She was far from a saint -- and as a mother she was flawed, but I believe that she did love her kids.

Nor are adoptive parents saints. No one can expect that they would be but they're people who wanted children and didn't mind that they weren't their own genetic children. Actually everyone of us is flawed in some way -- whether we got our kids the easy way, whether we were thrilled or dismayed to learn of a pregnancy. I'm sure many adoptive parents fear someday being rejected and may react in a way they shouldn't. When one of my cousins told her mom angrily that she didn't ask to be adopted, it hurt my aunt but my mom told her that my cousin was just using a line kids always use that she modified for her situation -- we would point out to our parents that we didn't ask to be born. I remember having to do dishes and help out and we decided that our parents only had us because they wanted slaves. Kids aren't always grateful -- not for being born, not for being adopted -- it's normal that they aren't at certain ages. I had to become a parent to realize what my parents really had done for us.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Out West
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
Well said, 3 wolves in snow and totally agree with the bolded bit. I think that all the adoptees on here are agreed on one thing - i.e. that it is OUR right to call OUR parents whatever we wish.

Also, even if one is an adoptee who had a bad life with one's adoptive parents (and I read a post of yours on another thread on another CD forum which made me want to give you a (((hug)))), one doesn't do be ridiculed for it and I feel that some of the adoptive parents on here are doing that.
Hmmm...I can't speak for anyone else because I don't really know any others but I do know that in Sheena's case, she is NOT ridiculing me for my crappy adopted life, either. I know for a fact she would not do that to me. I have no idea if you were implying she was, if you were, no she would not, to me. If you were not, then I missed something somewhere...which is quite expected since I don't get a lot of time to read everything anymore.

I'm with you in that I do not agree that being curious means anything other than being curious nor do I agree that someone doesn't deserve some kind of forgiveness at some point, later on in life. I am not there yet...but it could happen. And I will call her as I see fit should that happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
I just wanted to comment on this comment again:

Obviously from some posts, it's clear that some adoptees had a miserable life and very much resent their adoptive parents but fortunately they speak only for themselves and their own experiences or feelings.

Stop with the crap, people. The adoptive parents on here have been far more critical towards us adoptees than vice versa.

For example, some of the adoptive parents on here are saying that those adoptees who wish to have contact with their bparents are doing so because they are "disgruntled",another AP implied that that those adoptees who don't consider their adoption to be a blessing are bitter individuals and another adoptive parent cast aspersions on Tiff's parenting skills and then has the hide to turn around and cry that we are attacking her. A large number of adoptive parents on here seem to associate curiosity with betrayal which makes me sad for those adoptive parents that they feel so threatened.

Try and open your minds a bit and you might find that we are actually nice people.
Yah, I'm not "disgruntled", that's for sure. That is not why I am wanting to know them more. (My sister is the one who sought me out and found me and now I know other family members...well, a little, we're getting to know each other...slowly.) I've ALWAYS wanted to know them more, especially my siblings and extended family.

My grandmother was allowed to write me a letter and it was placed in my file. I was not informed of the letter, it was to sit there until/unless I one day contacted the agency. Well, when I was 18, my parents, (that would be the adopted ones), sat me down and gave me all kinds of information that they probably shouldn't have had were it not for the good grace of the social worker at the time. (God bless that lady.) But, I went right off to the military after that and was over in Germany for three years so didn't have the means nor time to start any search.

When I got back, I got myself somewhat established as a civilian again and then started to search. My first stop? The agency. The FIRST time I contacted them, they were very helpful and kind and I got that letter from my grandmother that had been sitting in my file for a year. What she said has always stuck with me: "Adoption is not fair to the extended family either, we have no rights." A truer statement could not have been said.

Because it was a "closed" adoption, NONE OF US could have any identifying information about the other unless sperm donor or the bio mother allowed it which entailed getting papers signed and mailed and received and notorized and back and forth and on and on....you have one bio parent who won't do it, the extended family, even the siblings, have no rights. The adoptee has NO rights! That is crap!

It was NEVER about betrayal to my adopted parents. Sure, we do not get along. But it was never about betrayal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MirrenC View Post
Of course, resent whom you like, but I specifically did not say, "I have never heard of any adoptee who resents his/her adoptive parents." I said, to be precise, "I am not sure which adoptees here had miserable lives and resent their adoptive parents. I cannot think of any."

Experiences vary widely, and I am sorry I was unfamiliar with your story.

Malamute drew a false correlation between people who had miserable lives, hate their adoptive parents, and want adoption to end. As you know, it's far more complicated than that. People can resent their adoptive parents and think that adoption is just fine as it is, love their adoptive parents and want adoption reform, and everything in between.
It wasn't an attack on you, just informing you that now you know someone on here. That's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I would never speak ill of the woman who birthed my daughter either.

This is way off topic. What I meant is that in my situation, in a closed adoption, that is international the term "birth parent" is not useful.

In terms of people who say that adoption is always "born of sadness" I disagree. There are consequences in life for the things that we do and the choices we make. I was raised this way and so were my children.

Unprotected premarital intercourse can result in a baby. That's a fact. My teenagers know this. I knew it.
Most adoptions are from this situation. My daughter's was.

I feel no guilt that I have adopted my daughter. I do not worry about the woman who birthed her. My daughter does not research it or want to look into it. Her only fear, which has passed was when she was about thirteen. That the woman would come looking for her and she would be forced to see her.

She was spooked by an adoption reunion show. We allayed her fears.

The other children that we are adopting come from a situation of abuse and neglect.. When parents abuse or neglect their kids, sometimes social services steps in and removes those children from their families of origin.
People who abuse their children have lost the right to be parents or to be called parents.

I do not think that per-marital sex is wrong. But not using protection is.
People who abuse their children should no longer be allowed to be that child's parents, legally, in the eyes of the law, when that child is under 18.

In my case, even if I did have a stellar adopted family, (and I would like to state, I think they really, really had no clue how to handle what they got. It certainly wasn't my fault, I had issues, I had PTSD, (that's NOT something you want to go through, EVER), I had social problems, I was way behind in learning, my nutrition, (or lack of food altogether), really stunted me in many ways back then, but they took me on. They did a lot of things right as far as instilling values, morals and such but I truly believe they were overwhelmed. I was not easy. Again, not my fault), I would still have sought out my birth family.

They tried, the adopted parents. They did not always succeed. My mother, more than my father, I think took it personally. And she got frustrated and mad and I think it cut her to her very core and she retaliated. It was hell. For both of us. She also abused me. Clearly it was not on the level as the bios but she did.

So, I can either go along and say, "you're right, they don't deserve to be called, 'parent' anymore if they abuse their kids" and consider myself an orphan with NO family at all, or, I can just accept that the past happened, there ain't a damn thing I can do to change it and if people seek me out and MAKE THE ATTEMPT with me, I'll give them that. I'll let them do it. I'll TRY, as I said, to keep an open mind...albeit difficult at times.

Right now, the one who has done that the most is the bio mom, the birth mother.

This is why I take issue when anyone says, "they should not be called this" or "they should be called that" and it's all, "for the sake of the child".

No.

For the sake of the child is to allow the child, (adult children as well), to call whomever whatever. Minds DO change. What may not have interested me two months ago, interests me now.

The bio mom may have said or done something that slung me right back to my early years and I may resent her for it and think ill things of her and consider her nothing but a birth canal....and then two months later, after she continues to try and try and try again, and I hear things from other family members, I may cut that out and refer to her as bio mom or birth mother or whatever the hell.

It's not cut and dry. That's the point. It is not black and white, it is not cut and dry and we adoptees will change our minds constantly probably for the rest of our lives...even those with great relationships.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it: The best thing my adopted parents ever did for me, the absolute best and most supportive thing EVER was them allowing ME to decide how I felt. They simply gave me the information. I talked to them. I told them when my sister found me. I called THEM before I called my sister for the first time. They said they wanted to support me. They said they wanted to be there for me as I went through this. They gave me advice, not on HOW to be, just to be careful and not rush on in to things. They were right, this is not something you can rush in to. It simply is not. There's a lot of ache and pain and broken hearts in some of these cases and they were wise enough to know this before I really dove in.

They screwed it all up in everything else...but this one they got right. So yah, they do still deserve to be called, "parent". And if bio mom and I ever do come to an understanding...we've been close a few times...I may just once again change what I call her.

Which is my right. My ever changing mind is my right. It is every adoptee's right. They may not want something now, they may later. Maybe they never will. We cannot ever know that. Only THEY will know that and if they do, we must have the most open mind and extend nothing but full support if they do.

It's not about the parents, bio or adopted, it's about the adoptee. Period.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
I think that both sides have been critical actually and that is why these boards turn into sides and defensive arguments towards one another. Hell, I get lambasted for using the words "win-win," have had my reading comphrension insulted (no I do not have a reading disability thanks much), my motives towards my children questioned, have had the ethics of my adoption challenged, etc. The list goes on. Again, I personally don't have any beef towards adoption reform and things needing to change in the adoption process. The Ethopia thread is interesting as well as the Utah case which shouldn't have happened. I think that many adoptive parents probably have more common ground than you may think.

Let me address the personal attacks though since your brought them up. I have never meant to question anyone's parenting skills and I've replied to Tiffjoy in a DM over a month? ago. I know she is an excellent mother. I do feel badly that she took it as a personal attack and I apologize. Sometimes when we write things, they can come out harsher than they sound. Again, I do apogize and in this case, I may have been reading challenged when I wrote that. From the bottom of my heart I never meant to imply she was a bad parent. These CD boards always have disagreements. Even if I disagree with you about some aspect of parenting, it doesn't mean that I'm questioning your parenting abilities. I know that Dark has cautioned us about discussing one another and not the topic at hand. If you want to DM me, feel free.

Finally, I agree with your last sentence completely with the addition of "adoptive parent". Add in one more thing though--Try to open your minds a bit and you might find many of the adoptive parents here on this board are actually nice people too.

As one final note and getting back to the topic at hand---I have to gently disagree with Sheena on this one. My kids are free to call their biological parents whatever they wish. I refer to their birth parents as their biological parents or Russian parents or Russian mom and dad. If my daughter asks me a question about her "mom," I don't get upset. She knows the details about her adoption and we've always have been very candid with her. I'm not "threatened" at all about words and labels. As other adoptees have so eloqently pointed out, it is really their call and not mine as an adoptive parent as to how they address their birth parents. I've always have been comfortable with that.
Linmora, I have at least appreciated that in the past you have tried to reach out and I seem to remember that you, I and other adoptees had a very respectful exchange of views. However, you then posted something that I, and I think some of the other adoptees, found quite hurtful - more so because we had all been going so well up to then.

Btw I actually know and like a lot of online adoptive parents and, no, not just the ones that agree with everything we say. I do understand that at least part of the problem when it comes to online exchange between APs and adoptees/bmoms is that in many situation, the adoptees/bmoms are coming onto the forums to explore their "nature" relationships (i.e. considering reunion/contact) and the adoptive parents are on the forums re their relationships where nature is absent. Thus, some APs can find talk by adoptees and bmoms re their biological relationships quite confronting. Also, each member of the triad may interpret the word "adoption" di fferently. To many APs and the general public, adoption tends to just mean the "second act" whereas to adoptees and bmoms, it can also mean the relinquishment as well as the adoption.

There are also many paradoxes where there can be great misunderstandings, EG re recent discussion about reasons for adoption - part of the problem there is that one needs to separate this discussion into reasons for the institution of adoption existing and reasons why people might adopt and some just don't seem able to see the difference. For example, personally, I would want my adoptive parents to have adopted me because they wanted a child/children (which is their reasons) but I would have wanted adoption to exist to find homes for children who needed them - in theory, one could say this is the situation but in the 50s, adoption was considered a way of curing two of society's "problems" - unmarried mothers and childless married women - it sounded wonderful in theory (i.e. "unmarried mother minus baby = no longer unmarried mother/childless married woman + baby = married woman with child) but didn't really take into account the wide degrees of human nature so wasn't always so wonderful in practice. Most Western countries (excluding the US) now realise that one can't use one sector of society to help "fix" another sector of society so they now use adoption for its original purpose, i.e. as a resource for those children who needed homes. Malumute will be happy to know that those children in the abovementioned Western countries that do need to be adopted are adopted by people who want children, they are not just handed out to random members of society.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:31 PM
 
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[quote=Three Wolves In Snow;27331083]Hmmm...I can't speak for anyone else because I don't really know any others but I do know that in Sheena's case, she is NOT ridiculing me for my crappy adopted life, either. I know for a fact she would not do that to me. I have no idea if you were implying she was, if you were, no she would not, to me. If you were not, then I missed something somewhere...which is quite expected since I don't get a lot of time to read everything anymore.

Actually, I wasn't talking about Sheena or Warren ridiculing you - I know they have never ridiculed you. I wasn't necessarily talking about them and you in particular. Having said that, you have the "saving grace" in theirs and others eyes of having said that you were glad you were adopted, thus you will never be ridiculed for having had "a bad experience".

The ridicule (again not necessary by S or W) is usually saved for those adoptees who feel that adoption was not necessarily the answer. This is a common tactic in the blogosphere in general, not necessarily on here.

First of all, if an adoptee doesn't consider adoption to be "a blessing", the assumption is often made that they must have "had a bad experience". I don't know how many blogs I've read where the readers all make comments along the lines of "those adoptees must have had bad experiences" purely because the "adoptee in question" has said something they don't agree with.

This can put the "non-blessed-feeling" adoptee in a bit of bind. If they did have "a bad experience" and express this, they are automatically considered irrelevant by those that they are in discussion with and thus their views are no longer to be taken seriously because "well, you know, they had a bad experience, that's why they don't approve of adoption".

Thus many online adoptees who had any sort of bad experience at all in their life tends to underplay it or never talk about any negatives. Even those with perfectly average lives who have the usual ups and downs that many people have during their life find it difficult to even mention any negative because they know that will be held against them and someone will no doubt say that they are not to be taken seriously because "well, you know, they had a bad experience, that's why they don't approve of adoption". Many online adoptees then find that they need to use "disclaimers" to prove that they had "good lives". The truth is that often the person's adoptive family "experience" has nothing to do with how they feel about adoption. In fact, the persons feelings about adoption may have been one thing in the past and a different thing now - yet their family experience is no different now than then. Sometimes it is education about certain aspects of adoption that changes views, for others it may be seeing their biological family as human that changes their views, it could be something totally different.

I'm with you in that I do not agree that being curious means anything other than being curious nor do I agree that someone doesn't deserve some kind of forgiveness at some point, later on in life. I am not there yet...but it could happen. And I will call her as I see fit should that happen.

That is your prerogative and yours alone.

Yah, I'm not "disgruntled", that's for sure. That is not why I am wanting to know them more. (My sister is the one who sought me out and found me and now I know other family members...well, a little, we're getting to know each other...slowly.) I've ALWAYS wanted to know them more, especially my siblings and extended family.

Sheena used "disgruntled" to describe those people who go on "Find your Family" to find their biological families - I've watched plenty of episodes of those programs (US and Aussie) and have never found the searching people to be disgruntled; infact, they all, to a man/woman, spoke very respectfully about their adoptive families; thus it seemed to me that the only reason that they were considered "disgruntled" by Sheena was purely because they were searching. If Sheena meant something different, then she might like to explain.

My grandmother was allowed to write me a letter and it was placed in my file. I was not informed of the letter, it was to sit there until/unless I one day contacted the agency. Well, when I was 18, my parents, (that would be the adopted ones), sat me down and gave me all kinds of information that they probably shouldn't have had were it not for the good grace of the social worker at the time. (God bless that lady.) But, I went right off to the military after that and was over in Germany for three years so didn't have the means nor time to start any search.

When I got back, I got myself somewhat established as a civilian again and then started to search. My first stop? The agency. The FIRST time I contacted them, they were very helpful and kind and I got that letter from my grandmother that had been sitting in my file for a year. What she said has always stuck with me: "Adoption is not fair to the extended family either, we have no rights." A truer statement could not have been said.

That's a good point about adoption - it involves our extended family - we lose cousins/uncles/grandparents/siblings etc, not just our mothers and fathers.

Because it was a "closed" adoption, NONE OF US could have any identifying information about the other unless sperm donor or the bio mother allowed it which entailed getting papers signed and mailed and received and notorized and back and forth and on and on....you have one bio parent who won't do it, the extended family, even the siblings, have no rights. The adoptee has NO rights! That is crap!

I am from Australia, born in NZ, we are very lucky that we have had access to records since the late 80s. Society hasn't collapsed.

It was NEVER about betrayal to my adopted parents. Sure, we do not get along. But it was never about betrayal.

It wasn't an attack on you, just informing you that now you know someone on here. That's all.

People who abuse their children should no longer be allowed to be that child's parents, legally, in the eyes of the law, when that child is under 18.

In my case, even if I did have a stellar adopted family, (and I would like to state, I think they really, really had no clue how to handle what they got. It certainly wasn't my fault, I had issues, I had PTSD, (that's NOT something you want to go through, EVER), I had social problems, I was way behind in learning, my nutrition, (or lack of food altogether), really stunted me in many ways back then, but they took me on. They did a lot of things right as far as instilling values, morals and such but I truly believe they were overwhelmed. I was not easy. Again, not my fault), I would still have sought out my birth family.

They tried, the adopted parents. They did not always succeed. My mother, more than my father, I think took it personally. And she got frustrated and mad and I think it cut her to her very core and she retaliated. It was hell. For both of us. She also abused me. Clearly it was not on the level as the bios but she did.

It is sad that there wasn't help out there for you all.

So, I can either go along and say, "you're right, they don't deserve to be called, 'parent' anymore if they abuse their kids" and consider myself an orphan with NO family at all, or, I can just accept that the past happened, there ain't a damn thing I can do to change it and if people seek me out and MAKE THE ATTEMPT with me, I'll give them that. I'll let them do it. I'll TRY, as I said, to keep an open mind...albeit difficult at times.

Right now, the one who has done that the most is the bio mom, the birth mother.

This is why I take issue when anyone says, "they should not be called this" or "they should be called that" and it's all, "for the sake of the child".

No.

For the sake of the child is to allow the child, (adult children as well), to call whomever whatever. Minds DO change. What may not have interested me two months ago, interests me now.

I think we are agreed on this point.

The bio mom may have said or done something that slung me right back to my early years and I may resent her for it and think ill things of her and consider her nothing but a birth canal....and then two months later, after she continues to try and try and try again, and I hear things from other family members, I may cut that out and refer to her as bio mom or birth mother or whatever the hell.

It's not cut and dry. That's the point. It is not black and white, it is not cut and dry and we adoptees will change our minds constantly probably for the rest of our lives...even those with great relationships.

Very true. Things change throughout life - I know I had different opinions in the past than I do now.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it: The best thing my adopted parents ever did for me, the absolute best and most supportive thing EVER was them allowing ME to decide how I felt. They simply gave me the information. I talked to them. I told them when my sister found me. I called THEM before I called my sister for the first time. They said they wanted to support me. They said they wanted to be there for me as I went through this. They gave me advice, not on HOW to be, just to be careful and not rush on in to things. They were right, this is not something you can rush in to. It simply is not. There's a lot of ache and pain and broken hearts in some of these cases and they were wise enough to know this before I really dove in.

They screwed it all up in everything else...but this one they got right. So yah, they do still deserve to be called, "parent". And if bio mom and I ever do come to an understanding...we've been close a few times...I may just once again change what I call her.

That is one thing I appreciate my parents as well.

Which is my right. My ever changing mind is my right. It is every adoptee's right. They may not want something now, they may later. Maybe they never will. We cannot ever know that. Only THEY will know that and if they do, we must have the most open mind and extend nothing but full support if they do.

It's not about the parents, bio or adopted, it's about the adoptee. Period.

Well said.
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