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Old 12-04-2012, 04:33 PM
 
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Mod note: This discussion was split off from a non-related thread

If it is better to go overseas, is it so the APs don't have to say that to the child? Because for all most overseas APs know, it is the exact same situation.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-05-2012 at 08:31 PM..

 
Old 12-04-2012, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
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My biggest nightmare scenario when trying to decide where to adopt was opening my door to someone saying "I've changed my mind" or a father coming forward saying "I was not even given a chance to parent". I was assured that by going to Korea for our first adoption that the child had been cleared for legal and ethical adoption. Eighteen years later in Vietnam we were also given that same assurance. We now know about some of the ruthless and greedy agencies and facilitators all over the world who only look at children as commodities.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-05-2012 at 08:38 PM.. Reason: Edited for clarity after thread split
 
Old 12-04-2012, 07:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
My biggest nightmare scenario when trying to decide where to adopt was opening my door to someone saying "I've changed my mind" or a father coming forward saying "I was not even given a chance to parent". I was assured that by going to Korea for our first adoption that the child had been cleared for legal and ethical adoption. Eighteen years later in Vietnam we were also given that same assurance. We now know about some of the ruthless and greedy agencies and facilitators all over the world who only look at children as commodities.
Interesting about the international adoption, and something I had never really heard about until this forum. Aren't your girls mostly grown? Have they ever expressed any interest in finding out what their birth story is? And is that something they can learn from the agencies, even if they are not comfortable meeting their birth parents (sorry if that is not the right word)?

And if you do not want to answer my next question I understand, but do you think that the agencies prey upon APs more in the international adoption industry or domestic?

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-05-2012 at 08:39 PM.. Reason: Edited for clarity after thread split
 
Old 12-04-2012, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
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Korean born daughter is 29-has no interest in birth parents, searching for them but she does have questions about medical background-like any adopted person would have. She sometimes forgets she is "different", lives with her long time SO and is very American.

Vietnamese daughters are 10 years old and have never talked about birth parents either. We have talked about adoption in general, their individual adoptions, my travels to pick them up etc and I have videos of Vietnam but they too are very Americanized. I've left the door open as much as I can for all 3 of them but we are letting them take their own time with questions.

I naively thought anybody involved in adoption was altruistic and had the best interests of children in mind. That was before my nightmare of dealing with facilitator who got deported while i was in country and her boss, the owner of the adoption agency who turned out to be a child hoarder, adopting 20 children. I'm sure there are good people involved in adoption and greed cannot be attributed more to domestic or international but I think it is easier to hide "fees" and "contributions to orphanages" in international adoption.
 
Old 12-05-2012, 10:50 AM
 
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Quote:
"So if it is better to go overseas, is it so the APs don't have to say that to the child? Because for all most overseas APs know, it is the exact same situation.
No, it is not the "exact same situation".

The vast majority of the children who are available for adoption in other countries are in orphanages because of parental neglect, abuse, or abandonment, because of the death of their birth parents and lack of extended family able or willing to assume custody, or because of physical or mental special needs which led their birth parents to sign over custody to the state.

Please educate yourself before making such a sweeping statement.

That said, I feel for everyone in this very sad situation, but for the little one most of all. How very confused, scared, and fearful this child must be! All of this trauma could have been avoided, had things been handled properly at first, something we can all agree upon.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-05-2012 at 11:02 AM.. Reason: Fixed the quote tag
 
Old 12-05-2012, 11:37 AM
 
16,600 posts, read 14,088,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
No, it is not the "exact same situation".

The vast majority of the children who are available for adoption in other countries are in orphanages because of parental neglect, abuse, or abandonment, because of the death of their birth parents and lack of extended family able or willing to assume custody, or because of physical or mental special needs which led their birth parents to sign over custody to the state.

Please educate yourself before making such a sweeping statement.

That said, I feel for everyone in this very sad situation, but for the little one most of all. How very confused, scared, and fearful this child must be! All of this trauma could have been avoided, had things been handled properly at first, something we can all agree upon.
Then please, explain how you KNOW how that is not the case.

Even in this country, with its strict adoption laws, this child was stolen from her father.

So how, do you know that the agency isn't just lying about the background of the children adopted overseas? How do you KNOW for a fact, that a child available for adoption overseas was not stolen from their parents?
 
Old 12-05-2012, 12:46 PM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,153,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Then please, explain how you KNOW how that is not the case.

Even in this country, with its strict adoption laws, this child was stolen from her father.

So how, do you know that the agency isn't just lying about the background of the children adopted overseas? How do you KNOW for a fact, that a child available for adoption overseas was not stolen from their parents?
Based on Craig's previous posts, s/he has a lot of personal knowledge about overseas adoption and agencies that work to place those children. Obviously, no one can know the details of EVERY adoption but, in general, I think we can trust what s/he has to say.
 
Old 12-05-2012, 12:56 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
No, it is not the "exact same situation".

The vast majority of the children who are available for adoption in other countries are in orphanages because of parental neglect, abuse, or abandonment, because of the death of their birth parents and lack of extended family able or willing to assume custody, or because of physical or mental special needs which led their birth parents to sign over custody to the state.

Please educate yourself before making such a sweeping statement.

That said, I feel for everyone in this very sad situation, but for the little one most of all. How very confused, scared, and fearful this child must be! All of this trauma could have been avoided, had things been handled properly at first, something we can all agree upon.
And please educate yourself.

Let's take Ethiopia, a current hot country for APs eager to adopt quickly. The ethical violations there are rampant. In many cases, children are being placed in orphanages because the parents think it is a TEMPORARY solution when they need help.

There's a particular blog written by an AP that I really like. She and her DH have adopted from Ethiopia, and she speaks openly about the ethical violations that are rampant in that country. She urges PAPs to educate themselves to ensure they do not participate in this when they adopt.

From her blog:
Quote:
A special note if you are considering Ethiopian adoption, you should know ethics in Ethiopian adoption are shaky. They have always been, but more stories and specific information about fraud in adoption are coming out every month. They reports are numerous. They are not "scare tactics." Please be aware that your agency will likely not tell you that there is at least a 50% chance your child's "story" is not what is written in your referral paperwork. Many of our friends have found out after their child is home that they were told lies about their child's history. Sad, horrible, lies. (Please, click on all the links to read.)
I encourage you to stop over to her blog and read a bit, especially the links on this page I quoted from:

Scooping it Up: CONSIDERING ETHIOPIAN, INTERNATIONAL OR TRANSRACIAL ADOPTION?

Additionally, check out this video made by an orphanage volunteer. It shows how very easy it is for a child who has a parent who does not want to place them still be available for adoption by the agency. Happens all the time in Ethiopia. I cannot recommend this video enough.

Out of Here - YouTube

Or this article in the Atlantic, about how parents are being duped out of their children by adoption agencies. Some of the stuff in here is appalling. One man who works to try to ensure the children being adopted do not actually have existing families has been jailed for doing this.

How Ethiopia's Adoption Industry Dupes Families and Bullies Activists - Atlantic Mobile
 
Old 12-05-2012, 01:32 PM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,849,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
And please educate yourself.
Even though it may be bad in some countries, many adoptions are done ethically and legally too. It isn't all bad or broken, even in international adoptions. I think that Craig has considerable expertise and has provided excellent input on these topics. Don't be so hasty to dismiss his insights.
 
Old 12-05-2012, 01:48 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Even though it may be bad in some countries, many adoptions are done ethically and legally too. It isn't all bad or broken, even in international adoptions. I think that Craig has considerable expertise and has provided excellent input on these topics. Don't be so hasty to dismiss his insights.
Please see the quote I was responding to (bolding my own):

Quote:
The vast majority of the children who are available for adoption in other countries are in orphanages because of parental neglect, abuse, or abandonment, because of the death of their birth parents and lack of extended family able or willing to assume custody, or because of physical or mental special needs which led their birth parents to sign over custody to the state.
I was responding to that statement.

True education means looking at all points.

I believe that Craig's experience is mostly in Eastern European adoptions with special needs? Correction welcome if I am mistaken. Each country needs to be evaluated separately. Some countries have much better safeguards in place than others. Ethiopia and Guatemala are well known for having serious ethical violations in their adoptions.

Besides, what is wrong with what I said? Is it not factual? I never, not once, said all adoption are bad or broken. In fact, I pointed Craig to an AP blog written by someone who has adopted two children from Ethiopia and said I'm a fan of it. Where did I dismiss what he said? Where did I argue with any statement besides the one I posted above- that all countries portion.

Again, presenting differing opinions, enlarging upon statements, exchanging experiences and knowledge- what is wrong with any of this??? Why so defensive?
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