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Old 12-05-2012, 10:43 AM
 
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Mod Note: This thread contains posts split off from the 'Judge Orders Baby Returned to Soldier Father' thread, as the discussion was turning to a discussion of adoption in Utah in general.




Do you know if in Utah, a father has to be notified? And is that dependent on his marital status?

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-09-2012 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Do you know if in Utah, a father has to be notified? And is that dependent on his marital status? Or is it due to the law you mentioned?
In Utah, the father has a rediculous short window to declare he wants custody, this window closes even if the father has no idea that the mother had delivered the baby and is putting it up for adoption in Utah, or aware of the hoops he has to jump through.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-09-2012 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:48 AM
 
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Default Utah-based adoptions

All adoptions in Utah should be frozen until the laws can be cleaned up. They are clearly operating in an unethical manner.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-09-2012 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Update to the original story - includes some really troubling concerns.
Troubling indeed. I don't think you make absolute judgments from a newspaper article, but the thing that really got my attention was the requirement that adoptive parents pay a $9800 fee to a "marketing group" in addition to their adoption fees.

It did say litigation had resulted from five other adoptions. However, according to the article, the adoptive parents prevailed in all those cases.

I don't see how the adoptive parents can prevail in this case though and they would be doing everyone a favor by giving up right now. The notion that a married father can be deprived of his rights to parent in this fashion is more than just troubling. I'll go further and say the notion that a soldier on active duty could lose the right to take action in a situation like this is also unacceptable. I won't go any further than that. But this sounds like a textbook case of how NOT to conduct an adoption.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:38 AM
 
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Mark - certainly it is a clear case of "How not to conduct an adoption".

What bothers me the most long-term is when questions are raised in the adoptee's mind (and other people) when abuses have happened in adoptions in their era - be it Utah today and it's reputation, Guat, Vietnam, Cambodia of a few years ago, Ireland exporting to the US, Canada exporting to the US, black market within the country from my era, questionable tactics used in Ethiopia, Uganda, DRC today - any of them because they are too numerous to list. As the adoptee there is that nagging question of what if my adopton wasn't on the up and up? I was spared that question, but others from my generation haven't been, and consider those from countries that down right closed due to the corruption and even if the adoptee knows it was all good - others in the adoptees circle of work and friends don't. IT (corruption of any type) TAINTS adoption and most specifically places an unfair burden on the adoptee. That's why adoptees speak up.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:45 AM
 
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That's the thing- they don't love her enough to do the right thing. They are so blind to how she will likely someday perceive this when she is an adult. They "may" not have known originally that she wasn't really available for adoption (honestly, anyone adopting in Utah has little regard for ethics, so I have little sympathy), but they knew months after and still refused to send her back to her father. It's basically kidnapping at that point, and I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up very, very angry at them once she's old enough to google her name.

It can be incredibly hard to do the right thing. But just because its hard doesn't make it ok to not do it. They had a responsibility as PAPs to verify their adoption was ethical and they did not. Most agencies hire a PI to find the father and ensure everything is done by the book. But as I said, in Utah, they play fast and loose with ethical boundaries.
Perhaps, its because of sanctimonious generalizations like this one that appear in most of your posts, I seldom bother to reply to what you write. So, you're an adoptive parent? Big deal.

I will say this: I adopted twice in Utah because that's where I live. A few facts about both my adoptions:

1. The birth mothers consented.
2. The birth fathers both consented.
3. Twenty years after my son's adoption I still maintain contact with his birth parents (notice the plural)
4. Thirteen years after my daughter's adoption I still maintain contact with his birth parents (more frequently with the birth father), but we often speak at least on the internet at least once a week.
5. The other day my daughter's birth father made a point of saying he was glad it was my wife and I who adopted our daughter.

What all this highlights is that many generalizations made about adoption are just that--generalizations. They have little applicability to specific situations.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-08-2012 at 11:42 AM.. Reason: Deleted rude comments
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Perhaps, its because of sanctimonious generalizations like this one that appear in most of your posts, I seldom bother to reply to what you write. So, you're an adoptive parent? Big deal.

I will say this: I adopted twice in Utah because that's where I live. A few facts about both my adoptions:

1. The birth mothers consented.
2. The birth fathers both consented.
3. Twenty years after my son's adoption I still maintain contact with his birth parents (notice the plural)
4. Thirteen years after my daughter's adoption I still maintain with his birth parents (more frequently with the birth father), but we often speak at least on the internet at least once a week.
5. The other day my daughter's birth father made a point of saying he was glad it was my wife and I who adopted our daughter.

What all this highlights is that many generalizations made about adoption are just that--generalizations. They have little applicability to specific situations.
Sanctimonious generalizations? Really?

My opinion is my opinion and I have a right to it. Utah, in my opinion based in looking at facts (not your posts or opinions), does not have proper ethical laws in place to protect adoptees and first parents. My opinion is anything but uninformed, but your attitude towards me is a little ridiculous.

I will say this again, as I have said before, APs need to stop making any negative statement about adoption all about their particular adoption

You want to bring your specific adoption in when I said nothing about yours. The laws in Utag favor APs. I've seen you yourself post about this (how in Utah, people believe its better for a married couple to raise a baby, hence some of the laws).

My post wasn't about you or your specific adoption. It's about Utah laws in general, which FREQUENTLY make the news because they allow situations like this to occur.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-08-2012 at 11:43 AM.. Reason: Edited quoted text
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
but your attitude towards me is a little ridiculous.

I will say this again, as I have said before, APs need to stop making any negative statement about adoption all about their particular adoption

I suggest if you care about being accurate, that you re-read your prior post. You referred to ANYONE adopting in Utah and suggested that this was unethical.

That makes this about more than just my specific situation. This condemns anyone who adopts (or has adopted in the past) in the state of Utah.

As you said earlier, you are entitled to your opinion. I would be entitled to an opinion that alien abduction stories are real or that the moon is made of green cheese. Both our opinions would have about the same weight and accuracy.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:56 AM
 
509 posts, read 484,530 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I suggest if you care about being accurate, that you re-read your prior post. You referred to ANYONE adopting in Utah and suggested that this was unethical.

That makes this about more than just my specific situation. This condemns anyone who adopts (or has adopted in the past) in the state of Utah.

As you said earlier, you are entitled to your opinion. I would be entitled to an opinion that alien abduction stories are real or that the moon is made of green cheese. Both our opinions would have about the same weight and accuracy.
When someone has to resort to name calling and attacks, I immediately dismiss them. You can't debate with someone who uses those tactics to divert from facts and derail actual discussion.

For others reading, my opinion is based in facts regarding Utah laws. Cases such as the one in the OP occur more often than they should with Utah adoptions.

'Baby Emma' case puts state adoption laws between father, child

There are ten cases currently in litigation just mentioned in this article.

I would think that those who have adopted would be only a too concerned with ensuring that laws are changed or tightened up to make all adoptions ethical. It only sheds a bad light on all adoptions in the state when this is such a frequent occurrence- pregnant women running off to Itah and giving a child up for adoption without the fathers knowledge or consent.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:41 PM
 
16,599 posts, read 14,088,141 times
Reputation: 20563
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Perhaps, its because of sanctimonious generalizations like this one that appear in most of your posts, I seldom bother to reply to what you write. So, you're an adoptive parent? Big deal.

I will say this: I adopted twice in Utah because that's where I live. A few facts about both my adoptions:

1. The birth mothers consented.
2. The birth fathers both consented.
3. Twenty years after my son's adoption I still maintain contact with his birth parents (notice the plural)
4. Thirteen years after my daughter's adoption I still maintain contact with his birth parents (more frequently with the birth father), but we often speak at least on the internet at least once a week.
5. The other day my daughter's birth father made a point of saying he was glad it was my wife and I who adopted our daughter.

What all this highlights is that many generalizations made about adoption are just that--generalizations. They have little applicability to specific situations.
FYI, you do the same thing to the adoptees. If any of them speak about wanting any type of adoption reform, YOU have generalized that they are "ant-adoption". And, Tiff was actually talking about generalities, the state of adoption in Utah.

And even if her generalities do not apply to your specific case, that does not remotely change the fact that Utah's adoption laws cast a shadow of dubious ethics over all of the adoptions that happen there. Its great yours was on the up and up, but every parent adopting there should be aware of that perception. If I were an AP, it would be of vital importance to me that my adoptee know beyond that shadow that their adoption was ethical.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-09-2012 at 11:17 AM..
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