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Old 12-28-2012, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,277 posts, read 5,173,064 times
Reputation: 3889

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
The last I've heard is that these 46 children will not be allowed to leave, but they will be first in line to be adopted by Russians.

Only a separate group of 6 children, who were already approved by the court will be allowed to leave.
It's a sad day indeed.
I know one of the families that is included in those 6 children. They have been told they 100% will get their children. The state department is currently compiling a list of the families that were in process and is trying to help them get their children.

Regardless of what the Russian guy on here says, these children are not going to be adopted by Russian families. They have Down Syndrome.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:17 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,101 posts, read 4,563,316 times
Reputation: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I checked out your Wikipedia link...

"In many regions of Russia the families that are adopting children get a one-time payment from the local budget, that might reach up to 300,000 rubles. In some regions the payments are planned to be increased up to 500,000 rubles and in some regions the adoptive families receive the housing certificates ( i.e. they become entitled to apartment ownership.)

The material compensation might bring doubts regarding the true motives behind the adoption."

У�ыновление — Википеди�

That might explain a thing or two why 1220 adopted children died in Russia within the last fifteen years
( and it might explain why some Russians think that Americans gain financially with these adoptions in their country, because they think that they are entitled to financial gains as well...)
Not everyone is looking for financial gain
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:19 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,101 posts, read 4,563,316 times
Reputation: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Just quickly dropping by to express my extreme sadness at the news of this day. I grieve for the families who already love the children whom they hoped to make their own, and most of all, for the children...who will now wait, and wait, and wait for families, be they Russian or American or of other nationalities, who will never come. Many of those ceaselessly waiting children have special needs, and so are highly unlikely to be of interest to Russians.

The "Washington Post" reports that in the twenty-year period that 19 children who were adopted from Russia by Americans perished, over 1,220 children adopted in Russia by Russians died. From the same source, over 100,000 children currently live in Russian orphanages (institutions were not mentioned so I don't know if this figure includes the many kids with special needs who live in adult-level mental institutions in Russia). Of these 100,000 children, over 80% are "social orphans", whose parents are living but who do not have custody of their children, either by choice or by relinquishing their children to the Russian government, or by losing custody due to neglect and/or abuse.

What a tragically sad day this is. Putin has the blood of the innocents on his hands.
19 children who received this much publicity, many other do not what is not known.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:22 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,101 posts, read 4,563,316 times
Reputation: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
The last I've heard is that these 46 children will not be allowed to leave, but they will be first in line to be adopted by Russians.

Only a separate group of 6 children, who were already approved by the court will be allowed to leave.
It's a sad day indeed.
So it's good for Russia vice-versa. Why do not you start thinking of many American children?
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:24 AM
 
Location: New York State, USA
142 posts, read 212,376 times
Reputation: 173
What's in the main-stream media here in USA is terribly one-sided. This is not about adoptive parents wanting to adopt Russian children, nor is it about the children caught in the middle.

In this Yahoo article:
Putin says he will sign anti-US adoptions bill - Yahoo! News
this quote caught my eye:

"Children's rights ombudsman Pavel Astakhov on Thursday petitioned the president to extend the ban to other countries. 'There is huge money and questionable people involved in the semi-legal schemes of exporting children,'

And this blog post is important as well: REFORM Talk Response to Proposed Russian Ban on US Adoptions | REFORM Talk --- REFORM Talk Response to Proposed Russian Ban on US Adoptions

Is it possible that Russians actually DO want to reform their own child-care institutions?

Last edited by taulery; 12-29-2012 at 08:27 AM.. Reason: adding closing sentence
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:01 AM
 
9,220 posts, read 9,289,216 times
Reputation: 28906
Quote:
What's in the main-stream media here in USA is terribly one-sided. This is not about adoptive parents wanting to adopt Russian children, nor is it about the children caught in the middle.

In this Yahoo article:
Putin says he will sign anti-US adoptions bill - Yahoo! News
this quote caught my eye:

"Children's rights ombudsman Pavel Astakhov on Thursday petitioned the president to extend the ban to other countries. 'There is huge money and questionable people involved in the semi-legal schemes of exporting children,'

And this blog post is important as well: REFORM Talk Response to Proposed Russian Ban on US Adoptions | REFORM Talk --- REFORM Talk Response to Proposed Russian Ban on US Adoptions

Is it possible that Russians actually DO want to reform their own child-care institutions?
I guess someone in Fairy Castle Land could choose to believe that.

What's really going on has little to do with adoption at all. What it has to do with is the fact that Putin and others in his government are angry that US has taken action against his country for human rights violations. This is one of the few ways that Russia has of retaliating against the USA. This article from CNN explains Russia's real motive for passing this law.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/28/world/...ons/index.html

Sadly, the orphans and the parents from America who want to adopt them are just pawns in a game of power politics.

If Russia truly wanted to reform its adoption system it could have done so years ago. The country has been prospering during the last five years because of high oil prices and high gold prices which are Russia's largest exports. Some individual Russians may want to reform this system and perhaps they don't get enough credit. However, what's occurred since the breakup of the USSR in 1991 has largely been a society that is characterized by its indifference to the suffering of orphans and children.

One other thing is vital to understanding international adoption issues and the behavior of countries like Russia. Most Americans do not understand the degree of jealousy and pride that exists among government officials in poor countries. This jealousy and pride leads to some pretty terrible things. I've spoken to friends who went to Third World countries for the purpose of bringing supplies to impoverished orphanages. When they got there, officials would go out of their way to tell them that the orphanage was "fine" and they had all the supplies they needed. In reality, the orphanage had shortages of blankets, pillows, medicines and just about every item under the sun. Such is the attitude though. This official (and many others) were willing to let children do without basic necessities of life just so he could put on a "good face" in front of the visiting Americans.

No nation wants to be thought of as so poor that it has to send its children overseas to have something resembling a decent life. Yet, its just the plain truth for some of them. Yet, the ruling class in these countries hates this image. The children in orphanages don't vote and have very little say in what happens in these countries. It is easy to forget them. In fact, one reason I suspect orphanages exist in large numbers in some of these countries is that they are a place to "stash" and "hide-a-way" these kids, so they aren't in the streets where everyone would see them and realize the dimensions of the problem. People without power--who are invisible--are perfect pawns for politicians and unscrupulous government officials.

Maybe someday the ruling class in these countries will start worrying less about some sense of misplaced "national pride" and start using their time and resources to build up an economy and fix the problems they have. That would be a long term solution to much of the child abandonment problem. I'm not holding my breath though. The truth is that laws like Russia passed and encumbrances created by the Hague Convention have just about brought international adoption to a halt.

The sad thing is that the welfare of poor children is no better for it.

Last edited by markg91359; 12-29-2012 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,277 posts, read 5,173,064 times
Reputation: 3889
They are proposing an amendment to the bill which allows children with special needs to still be adopting by Americans.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,277 posts, read 5,173,064 times
Reputation: 3889
Quote:
Originally Posted by taulery View Post
What's in the main-stream media here in USA is terribly one-sided. This is not about adoptive parents wanting to adopt Russian children, nor is it about the children caught in the middle.

In this Yahoo article:
Putin says he will sign anti-US adoptions bill - Yahoo! News
this quote caught my eye:

"Children's rights ombudsman Pavel Astakhov on Thursday petitioned the president to extend the ban to other countries. 'There is huge money and questionable people involved in the semi-legal schemes of exporting children,'

And this blog post is important as well: REFORM Talk Response to Proposed Russian Ban on US Adoptions | REFORM Talk --- REFORM Talk Response to Proposed Russian Ban on US Adoptions

Is it possible that Russians actually DO want to reform their own child-care institutions?
Please do not refer to them as "child-care institutions." They often do anything but take care of the children. The Russian government does not want to reform them or they would have done so. This ban does not change how the children are treated one bit except for make it so they can't get families.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:35 AM
 
393 posts, read 505,196 times
Reputation: 440
The US had to repeal the 1974 Jackson-Vanik amendment or be in violation of WTO and then Russia could impose penalties on US companies in the global market. Congress chose to combine the PNTR act with Russia with the Magnitsky Act while repealing the Jackson-Vanik amendment.

The Right Way to Repeal Jackson-Vanik - Bloomberg

Full Text of H.R. 6156: Russia and Moldova Jackson-Vanik Repeal and Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act of ... - GovTrack.us#

Not weighing in on whose right and whose wrong, but it certainly is far more complex than adoption. Give it some time to see what happens when cooler heads prevail.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:29 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,279,104 times
Reputation: 48876
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I guess someone in Fairy Castle Land could choose to believe that.

What's really going on has little to do with adoption at all. What it has to do with is the fact that Putin and others in his government are angry that US has taken action against his country for human rights violations. This is one of the few ways that Russia has of retaliating against the USA. This article from CNN explains Russia's real motive for passing this law.

Russia's Putin signs anti-U.S. adoption bill - CNN.com

Sadly, the orphans and the parents from America who want to adopt them are just pawns in a game of power politics.

If Russia truly wanted to reform its adoption system it could have done so years ago. The country has been prospering during the last five years because of high oil prices and high gold prices which are Russia's largest exports. Some individual Russians may want to reform this system and perhaps they don't get enough credit. However, what's occurred since the breakup of the USSR in 1991 has largely been a society that is characterized by its indifference to the suffering of orphans and children.

One other thing is vital to understanding international adoption issues and the behavior of countries like Russia. Most Americans do not understand the degree of jealousy and pride that exists among government officials in poor countries. This jealousy and pride leads to some pretty terrible things. I've spoken to friends who went to Third World countries for the purpose of bringing supplies to impoverished orphanages. When they got there, officials would go out of their way to tell them that the orphanage was "fine" and they had all the supplies they needed. In reality, the orphanage had shortages of blankets, pillows, medicines and just about every item under the sun. Such is the attitude though. This official (and many others) were willing to let children do without basic necessities of life just so he could put on a "good face" in front of the visiting Americans.

No nation wants to be thought of as so poor that it has to send its children overseas to have something resembling a decent life. Yet, its just the plain truth for some of them. Yet, the ruling class in these countries hates this image. The children in orphanages don't vote and have very little say in what happens in these countries. It is easy to forget them. In fact, one reason I suspect orphanages exist in large numbers in some of these countries is that they are a place to "stash" and "hide-a-way" these kids, so they aren't in the streets where everyone would see them and realize the dimensions of the problem. People without power--who are invisible--are perfect pawns for politicians and unscrupulous government officials.

Maybe someday the ruling class in these countries will start worrying less about some sense of misplaced "national pride" and start using their time and resources to build up an economy and fix the problems they have. That would be a long term solution to much of the child abandonment problem. I'm not holding my breath though. The truth is that laws like Russia passed and encumbrances created by the Hague Convention have just about brought international adoption to a halt.

The sad thing is that the welfare of poor children is no better for it.

The sheer quantity of children would prevent adoption of all of them.

Russians and in general people from the former USSR do not want to adopt older or other people's children Adoption involved other peoples children, being able to embrace and love a child born to another.This is not unique to Russians. Many Americans feel this way.

However, Eastern cultures, seen to have more difficulty than western ones do.

Foster Care in Ukraine is a sham. The children are used as house or farm servants.

Just for the "right" of the child to stay in her own country.

I too am not a supporter of the Hague Convention. It has done more harm than good.
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