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Old 12-19-2012, 05:17 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,848,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
For the sake of these children is good. They will be better with the Russian parents than to be in the American hornbeam.
So why are there so many children waiting in orphanages over there in Russia turned down by Russian adoptive parents? They had their chance. If the majority of kids could find adoptive homes within the Russian system, great. Unfortunately reality says otherwise. That is why they become available for adoption to foreigners, and just not Americans.

If your attitude is one that the majority of Russians share about their children adopted to Americans, I truly feel sorry for you.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Beverly, Mass
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American mainstream media has anti-Russian bias, don't take their perspective as the whole story. Look at different sources for your information. Russian people think America is drowning in violence, and they want to prevent Russian kids from being abused and killed.

The cases of child abuse of Russian children by adoptive parents have stunned the Russian government to the point that they are considering banning foreign adoptions altogether, especially those to the United States.

Russian officials claimed that at least 19 adopted children from Russia have died at their American parents’ hands.

One case resulted in an American mother sending her 7-year-old boy back to Russia on a one-way ticket, saying he had behavioral problems.


Child Abuse Cases Involving Adopted Russians Continue Despite US-Russian Agreement: Voice of Russia American Edition
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:21 AM
 
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Police detain 15 protesting at Russian bill to ban U.S. adoption | Reuters

I do think we (society) need to look into the adoption agencies / homestudy agencies to determine if and/or how red flags are missed. What can be fixed to ensure bad parents don't get approved. I did link a while back to the study Washington State initiated that did just that. They found flaws, flaws easily remedied.

Post adoption support and more prior education needs to be a major part of the landscape as well.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:40 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,848,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Police detain 15 protesting at Russian bill to ban U.S. adoption | Reuters

I do think we (society) need to look into the adoption agencies / homestudy agencies to determine if and/or how red flags are missed. What can be fixed to ensure bad parents don't get approved. I did link a while back to the study Washington State initiated that did just that. They found flaws, flaws easily remedied.

Post adoption support and more prior education needs to be a major part of the landscape as well.
I agree with you on having checks and balances and making sure that "bad parents" don't slip though the cracks and get approved. It does happen and when there is a tragedy involving the death of an adopted child, it makes the news and then countries are swift to react. Even if parents are carefully screened, unfortunate events still can happen. You can't prevent or anticipate everything that a biological/adoptive parent will do. People will always make knuckleheaded mistakes or do some truly evil things to their children. When it involves an adoptive parent though, this has more of a chance to make the news and add to the generally anti American sentiment that already exists overseas. Or just make adoptive parents look bad in general. What generally gets overlooked are the multitudes of adoptive parents that are doing their best, trying their best to give their children a happy and loving home. The positive stories usually get buried and the media, foreign and domestic, usually latch onto the ugly parts.

It's a shame since this will further delay or completely close the process of finding these children homes. If the Russians feel so passionately about this, then get these kids into good Russian homes or put money towards a well funded foster care environment. Make it easy for Russians to adopt these children. It is easy to protest and flail one's arms about. Actually finding homes for these children is a bit more difficult. My kids were on a national registry and the Russians had their chance. In fact, this is what added to our waiting period. Unfortunately, no Russians expressed any interest. A few looked, they all declined.

Last edited by Siggy20; 12-19-2012 at 07:49 AM..
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:52 AM
 
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Linmora - no, not every bad parent will be caught but like any business - if a process fails you need to do a review and see if it was avoidable or unavoidable. I had to do that in my job - break down and review each step to determine where the crack was that caused the problem and then find a solution that was a reasonable work around. Every single business does this.

I don't disagree with your statement about good parents - I do disagree with the automatic "but what about the good ones response" to any discussion about abuse in adoptive homes. Clouding the issue with talk of the good ones shuts down productive discussion. I am trying to say this gently, and the comparison analogy is not a good one (very tired this morning), but it is off the top of my head. If e-coli was found in hamburger from a plant would you add to the discussion with talk about all the good hamburger from the plant, or just want to deal finding what broke down, and ways to fix it for the future?

I linked to an article that also provided details about Russians who oppose shutting down adoptions the US - they got out and protested the proposed ban. Just like anything - there are many different shades and opinions.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:17 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,848,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Linmora - no, not every bad parent will be caught but like any business - if a process fails you need to do a review and see if it was avoidable or unavoidable. I had to do that in my job - break down and review each step to determine where the crack was that caused the problem and then find a solution that was a reasonable work around. Every single business does this.

I don't disagree with your statement about good parents - I do disagree with the automatic "but what about the good ones response" to any discussion about abuse in adoptive homes. Clouding the issue with talk of the good ones shuts down productive discussion. I am trying to say this gently, and the comparison analogy is not a good one (very tired this morning), but it is off the top of my head. If e-coli was found in hamburger from a plant would you add to the discussion with talk about all the good hamburger from the plant, or just want to deal finding what broke down, and ways to fix it for the future?

I linked to an article that also provided details about Russians who oppose shutting down adoptions the US - they got out and protested the proposed ban. Just like anything - there are many different shades and opinions.
No I don't think that I'm clouding the issue and I actually agreed with you about checks and balances. If there is a break in a process, then yes, it certainly needs a review and I'm not disputing that. I served in the military for many years and we often did what you did in your business--probably to an excessive degree sometimes. We were always looking at ways to do things better or if there was a flaw in the process, how we would correct it. I understand that, I really do. If e-coli is in the hamburger, then yes, we need to look at the process and try to fix it. I don't think your analogy is a good one because I'm not arguing with you about needing to look at the whole system, especially if there are loopholes were bad people can adopt. There is much to fix in the area of adoptions and there is where adoption reform is needed. I do agree.

My point was in light of the media frenzy, there are many great adoptive parents out there and I will keep stating this because it is important to see two sides. I do hope that with time, Russia sees the big picture. In one linked article, it stated that 60,000 adoptions have occured since the Cold War. 19 cases of abuse and death have occured at the hand of Americans. 19 deaths are 19 deaths too many but evidence would point to many successful adoptions too. Look at the parents who diligently send in their reports for three years with information on their adopted children, look at many of these kids thriving in their new homes. Look at many of these kids getting the medical attention they need. I think that with the negative, it is also important to look at the positive and make a judgement from there. I would suspect that with time and calmer heads prevailing, Russia may back off. Maybe this lead to some good things---increased Russian adoptions, increased funding to the orphanges. Don't know. I will be interested to see how it all develops.

And with one final note and a nod towards CraigCreek, I will quote him.....

---meanwhile the children wait.

Last edited by Siggy20; 12-19-2012 at 08:33 AM..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:20 AM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,149,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetka View Post
One case resulted in an American mother sending her 7-year-old boy back to Russia on a one-way ticket, saying he had behavioral problems.

IIRC, the adoptive parents weren't informed of the extent of the child's issues (which were major) prior to the adoption, and they were unable to obtain adequate services for him here. Obviously, they shouldn't just have put him on a plane and sent him back, but I think they felt they had no other option.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
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more today

Russia gives initial approval to measure banning Americans from adopting Russian children - CBS News
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:01 PM
 
16,600 posts, read 14,081,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
No I don't think that I'm clouding the issue and I actually agreed with you about checks and balances. If there is a break in a process, then yes, it certainly needs a review and I'm not disputing that. I served in the military for many years and we often did what you did in your business--probably to an excessive degree sometimes. We were always looking at ways to do things better or if there was a flaw in the process, how we would correct it. I understand that, I really do. If e-coli is in the hamburger, then yes, we need to look at the process and try to fix it. I don't think your analogy is a good one because I'm not arguing with you about needing to look at the whole system, especially if there are loopholes were bad people can adopt. There is much to fix in the area of adoptions and there is where adoption reform is needed. I do agree.

My point was in light of the media frenzy, there are many great adoptive parents out there and I will keep stating this because it is important to see two sides. I do hope that with time, Russia sees the big picture. In one linked article, it stated that 60,000 adoptions have occured since the Cold War. 19 cases of abuse and death have occured at the hand of Americans. 19 deaths are 19 deaths too many but evidence would point to many successful adoptions too. Look at the parents who diligently send in their reports for three years with information on their adopted children, look at many of these kids thriving in their new homes. Look at many of these kids getting the medical attention they need. I think that with the negative, it is also important to look at the positive and make a judgement from there. I would suspect that with time and calmer heads prevailing, Russia may back off. Maybe this lead to some good things---increased Russian adoptions, increased funding to the orphanges. Don't know. I will be interested to see how it all develops.

And with one final note and a nod towards CraigCreek, I will quote him.....

---meanwhile the children wait.
First, it is hardly a "media frenzy"in regards to the russian ban on adoptions. I haven't seen it on any news show at all.

Second, if 19 are dead, how many more are dead, abused, etc and not being reported? I think that is what is concerning to lots of people. And since we have no idea how many children are being put in harm's way, I also, have no real interest in once again patting all the APs on the back about what a great job they are doing. It is important to remember that when we are trying to prevent child abuse, even within biological families, we do not have to mention at every turn, all the kids who are not abused. If adopted families are just families, why do APs need to be treated differently?

Finally, and this is a sad fact, but adopted children, like all children living with a non-biological parent are more likely to be abused than children living with just their biological parents or family members.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:19 PM
 
125 posts, read 131,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon View Post
IIRC, the adoptive parents weren't informed of the extent of the child's issues (which were major) prior to the adoption, and they were unable to obtain adequate services for him here. Obviously, they shouldn't just have put him on a plane and sent him back, but I think they felt they had no other option.
I am not so sure. I can understand that Ms. Hansen's coping skills may have been worn down to nothing, but a parent, a parent will seek help. A person who knows how to get an attorney to cover her behind in court can certainly find other avenues to get help, psychiatric or otherwise, for her son; perhaps she was too proud to look? What is your evidence that she couldn't find help for a child with "major" problems? From what I read in various news outlets, Hansen never sought help at all from the social workers at the agency, but simply put Artyem on the plane. She could have disrupted the adoption legally; other adoptive parents seem to know how to do that. I do not know what Ms. Hansen did or did not know about Artyem's problems before (or was or was not told by people in the orphanage). She complained about him, but he also said that she screamed at him and pulled his hair; it was clearly not a match made in heaven. She seems like a very immature adult, in any case, who doesn't understand the ramifications of being a parent, and if she did not have the resources to help an older child who had been abused in the orphanage, she should not have adopted him.

Sending the child back to Russia with a NOTE was an act of pure desperation, and not the act of a PARENT. That was abandonment, pure and simple. Anyone who dumps a child, without making proper arrangements, should go to jail. I do not feel pity for her because of the dangerous choices she made. I am not saying that she didn't feel safe with the child; if she needed him out of her life, heartbreaking but fine. If she truly felt she had no better option than to abandon him to the kindness of strangers and the streets of Moscow, she was an inappropriate parent, not simply an overburdened one.
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