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Old 12-30-2012, 05:35 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,279,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
In the USSR, 6-5 children is was normal. Today it is much less. But the is 2 children. (often) one child too often. 8 and more rare but there. I have a very large family. I have three aunts and one uncle (for a total of 5) on the father.(The line is the father) By line mother 3 (one uncle and one aunt) They all have 3 - 4 children (that is my brothers and sisters) in my family - I have two brothers and one sister, and now 3 more children. No matter how bad or good life was now, yet there are families who have 8-9 children.
I am not talking about your family,I am talking about most families now. Five or six children is not normal is Russia today.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:44 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,279,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
I guess that it is all a moot point now since Putin signed the bill. Sad day for all these children in the orphanages. My heart also goes out to the children in limbo---46 of them I believe? Let's see if Russia rises to the challange and finds good homes for all the children in the orphanages.

Sheena, does any of his impact you? I thought that you were looking at a Russian adoption or was that a different region? Mind is fuzzy from lack of coffee.

No but thank you for asking. We are adopting from Ukraine.

Still my heart breaks fir these children. Not only the 46. all of the children! There is a country with people willing and eager ti adopt children and another over run with orphans.

The solution seems easy. I still hope and pray for a miracle.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:58 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,849,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
No but thank you for asking. We are adopting from Ukraine.

Still my heart breaks fir these children. Not only the 46. all of the children! There is a country with people willing and eager ti adopt children and another over run with orphans.

The solution seems easy. I still hope and pray for a miracle.
Yeah, I'm praying for a solution too Sheena. This whole thing is heartbreaking.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Beverly, Mass
940 posts, read 1,632,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
The US had to repeal the 1974 Jackson-Vanik amendment or be in violation of WTO and then Russia could impose penalties on US companies in the global market. Congress chose to combine the PNTR act with Russia with the Magnitsky Act while repealing the Jackson-Vanik amendment.

The Right Way to Repeal Jackson-Vanik - Bloomberg

Full Text of H.R. 6156: Russia and Moldova Jackson-Vanik Repeal and Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act of ... - GovTrack.us#

Not weighing in on whose right and whose wrong, but it certainly is far more complex than adoption. Give it some time to see what happens when cooler heads prevail.
At least the Magnitsky scandal will bring more light to the corruption and abuse of power of the Russian government and will bring more light to the condition of Russian orphans, who were mostly invisible before this. I suspect that Putin might use this as a bargaining tool to request a repeal of the Magnitsky act. But it was not a smart political move for Putin, because he is facing the biggest public outrage of his presidency around the world and at home.

I think this story is far from over, and there will be many people putting a lot of effort to fight this. We live in an increasingly smaller world, and Russia is no longer a country closed to the rest of the world, where they can live by their own rules. This just shows that you cannot flip a switch and destroy the roots of an old regime. It will take generations and scandals like this to expose the system and build a public will to change it.

The demographic crash might have something to do with this, as the orphans are being realized for their value as human resources. At least, hopefully Putin might come up with a nice package to help the orphans, which would somewhat soften the outrage, but a lot of it might again end up in the pockets of bureaucracy.

I can imagine that the Russian Duma was not expecting a move like that. However, I don't know if the Magnitsky act was a smart thing to do politically. To presume that 60 Russian officials are guilty without trial is not the best application of the American justice system, and is not the best move if you want to work on your relationship with Russia. What did they expect would happen in response? It already backfired against the Russian orphans. May be there was a smarter way to make a statement. Either the West had run out of patience, or they are prepared for an escalation, or they think this will strengthen Russian opposition, or they are reacting to a growing Russian influence and economic threat (or all of the above).

At least this has exposed some deep hidden issues in the Russian society.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:00 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,279,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetka View Post
At least the Magnitsky scandal will bring more light to the corruption and abuse of power of the Russian government and will bring more light to the condition of Russian orphans, who were mostly invisible before this. I suspect that Putin might use this as a bargaining tool to request a repeal of the Magnitsky act. But it was not a smart political move for Putin, because he is facing the biggest public outrage of his presidency around the world and at home.

I think this story is far from over, and there will be many people putting a lot of effort to fight this. We live in an increasingly smaller world, and Russia is no longer a country closed to the rest of the world, where they can live by their own rules. This just shows that you cannot flip a switch and destroy the roots of an old regime. It will take generations and scandals like this to expose the system and build a public will to change it.

The demographic crash might have something to do with this, as the orphans are being realized for their value as human resources. At least, hopefully Putin might come up with a nice package to help the orphans, which would somewhat soften the outrage, but a lot of it might again end up in the pockets of bureaucracy.

I can imagine that the Russian Duma was not expecting a move like that. However, I don't know if the Magnitsky act was a smart thing to do politically. To presume that 60 Russian officials are guilty without trial is not the best application of the American justice system, and is not the best move if you want to work on your relationship with Russia. What did they expect would happen in response? It already backfired against the Russian orphans. May be there was a smarter way to make a statement. Either the West had run out of patience, or they are prepared for an escalation, or they think this will strengthen Russian opposition, or they are reacting to a growing Russian influence and economic threat (or all of the above).

At least this has exposed some deep hidden issues in the Russian society.

I agree. "hidden deep within Russian society..." There is also a fear in Russia of an aging population. Has Putin recently urged Russian women to have more children?
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,485 posts, read 43,819,649 times
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Default Russians trying to help American Mom

Russians Rally to Help U.S. Adoption Mom Blocked From Child - ABC News
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Old 01-01-2013, 07:26 PM
 
10,527 posts, read 8,449,697 times
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There is a possibility that children with special needs (thus far, undefined special needs) may be excluded from the ban, as a member of the Russian duma intends to introduce an amendment to this purpose. However, things are shut down in Russia for another week or so because of the holidays.

My heart breaks for the families and children caught in this mess. It would be one thing if Russian families adopted more frequently, but adoption isn't part of the Russian cultural tradition, much less adoption of older children (i.e., over age four is considered "older" - sad.) or children with special needs.

While children do receive decent care in some Russian orphanages, children with special needs often do not get the specialized health care they need to thrive. And all orphaned Russian children are thrust out from the orphanages at the ages of sixteen or seventeen, and must rely on their own resources with minimal assistance from their government (as is standard in all the countries of the former Soviet Union and Soviet bloc). All except for those with special needs, of course - instead, these children are generally sent to adult level mental institutions, sometimes at age four (! think about the four-year-olds in your own families - and imagine them in such a place...), not because of mental illness but because of developmental delays or physical special needs (often correctable or treatable, but left uncorrected and untreated). Especially for these children, adoption is life-giving and life-saving...

Putin has urged Russian parents to have three or more biological children, despite the over 800,000 Russian children now living in orphanages. Such a cynical travesty...
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:45 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
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An interesting op-Ed piece about Putin's power and motivation. a very dangerous man.

Russia’s adoption ban says much about Putin - The Washington Post
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:54 PM
 
15,049 posts, read 13,652,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
So it's good for Russia vice-versa. Why do not you start thinking of many American children?
"Secondary orphancy - is a social phenomena in modern Russia, that's brought by refusal of adoptive parents from their adopted children. Secondary orphancy deeply traumatize children and causes moral and psychological degradation. When they find themselves abandoned second time in life, children lose whatever trust they've had their for adults; they feel disappointed in family institution, they experience problems with emotional attachment to people close to them.
The number of children returned to orphanages is skyrocketing; it already achieved few thousands annually. According to official statistics there were 6136 of such cases in 2007, in 2008 - 7834 cases, in 2009 - 8474 cases. Practically all cases took place in Russian families. For example in 2009 there were 8473 children returned by Russian families, only one child has been returned to orphanage after foreign adoption. At that the number of people willing to take children from orphanages for adoption was dwindling down every year; there were 129, 561 in 2007, 113,751 in 2008 and 90, 639 in 2009.
The chairman of State Duma committee on family, women and children Yelena Mizulina stated that such spike in numbers of returned children is considered by specialists as humanitarian catastrophe.
The majority of children are returned by decision of people who initially took them from the orphanages. For example in 2008 64 % of children (5057 from 7834) were returned according to the initiative of their adoptive parents and guardians. 78% of returned children (6114 из 7834) lived in families that were reimbursed financially for their upbringing. (4946 children from paid legal guardianship, 931 children from adoptive families, 237 from foster families.)[

As experts are saying, the theme of secondary orpahncy is often hushed, because of the trumpeted state-organized campaign of mass adoption.
Pavel Astakhov, the Children's Rights Commissioner for the President of the Russian Federation, announced in February 2012 that "the majority children's homes and boarding-schools in Russia will be closed withing the next 5-8 years and children will be moved to adoptive families.
The commercial nature of placement of children into families brought to what the chairman of State Duma committee on family, women and children Yelena Mizulina referred to as following; "Children are taken into families with the purpose of financial gains, and once those gains are received, children are easily returned back to orphanages.
As a result of it, the problem of orphancy is not is not resolved and the number of orphans is growing.
As a rule, adoptive parents prefer to take younger children of pre-school age. When these children reach the teen years and the adoptive parents start experiencing difficulties with them, they often rescind the agreement and return children to orphanages. However the chances for teenagers to find new parents are already very slim."

This is only small part in the whole problem ( you can read the rest, right?)

Усыновление — Википедия

You can see the figures, the whole picture, the ratio of total population to orphaned children in Russia and the rest, and you can compare it with some facts from American statistics;

Facts About Foster Care — Children’s Rights

So taking in consideration the ratio of population to number of children in foster care and the rest - where the situation brings more concern - in the US or Russia?
You tell me.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:58 PM
 
15,049 posts, read 13,652,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I agree. "hidden deep within Russian society..." There is also a fear in Russia of an aging population. Has Putin recently urged Russian women to have more children?
Putin can urge Russian women to have more children all he wants, but unless the Soviet-style social security net is in place ( I am not even talking Western-European style social security net, but Soviet style at least,) the birth rates will remain low, and the number of children in orphanages will keep on growing.
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