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Old 02-20-2013, 11:08 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,848,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
I guess I don't subscribe to the "UScentric" view that children of other countries are better off in the US in middle class homes. All of the things you talk about, drugs, prostitution, and crime exist here too. There are also children here in the US that languish in foster homes and whose prospects are limited. Why not "save" them?
This has nothing to do with "UScentric" views. You do know that other other foreigners come into Russia to adopt as well? We had several Italian families there at the same time visiting children. Should they be allowed to adopt or are your concerns mostly geared towards Americans?

This has everything to do with giving a child a better life, whether it be with an American, Italian, Spanish, etc family. There are waiting children. There are adoptive parents out there that want to give a child a loving home. Really has nothing to do with any sense of idealism on our part or a UScentric view.

The foster system? Yes, I am actually open to this at some point. When we move and get settled somewhere, we will be looking into this. And your comment about drugs, crime exisiting in the US. Yes, you are right, they certainly do too. No place is perfect and every country has problems. However, after visiting Russia, as I said, it changed my perspective. Our region was very poor and in many ways, resembled a third world country. Unfortunately many of these institutionalized children have a very limited future in a depressed, poor region and their futures are bleak. I just saw Craig's post and he captured all of my sentiments so eloquently. Give that a careful read because he is spot on in his comments.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:19 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,848,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
It is the neglect and survival techniques required to live in such places which lead to the problems you cite in children who have severe difficulty adjusting to family life after adoption, not adoption itself.
Yes, yes and yes!!! I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

I have no doubt in my mind that had we adopted my daughter a bit younger than the age of 4, we would not be facing some of the problems we are right now. No nurturing, having to fend for oneself, survival of the fittest can have some horrific consequences, not the adoption itself. She actually adapted quite well to her new culture and to the family. However she came with a whole host of issues, mostly from being in an orphanage almost since birth.

My son exhibits a few institution related behaviors (rocking) but nothing on the scale of what my daughter exhibits. Fortunately we are getting help but it is going to be a long, rocky road ahead for us. Thank goodness for excellent medical care and our health insurance. And state services.

Thanks again Craig for your eloquent post!! And really time for me to do some other things with my day than be on these boards.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:36 AM
 
297 posts, read 419,318 times
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Originally Posted by CraigCreek
It is the neglect and survival techniques required to live in such places which lead to the problems you cite in children who have severe difficulty adjusting to family life after adoption, not adoption itself.


This is clearly not true if you look at the many studies regarding adopted children. Whether they are adopted as infants or older, domestic or international, there are significantly more issues and at higher risk just for the fact they are adopted. The other factors, such as age and culture just compound the issues.

I appreciate where you are coming from but your thinking is old. There are many issues regarding adoption that have come to light that were never thought of before as the children from the 60s and 70s age. 1970s being the height of adoption, it only makes sense. Sample sizes are larger and adult adoptees are able to contribute to the research and give a more complete perspective.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:16 PM
 
10,510 posts, read 8,441,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
Originally Posted by CraigCreek
It is the neglect and survival techniques required to live in such places which lead to the problems you cite in children who have severe difficulty adjusting to family life after adoption, not adoption itself.

This is clearly not true if you look at the many studies regarding adopted children. Whether they are adopted as infants or older, domestic or international, there are significantly more issues and at higher risk just for the fact they are adopted. The other factors, such as age and culture just compound the issues.

I appreciate where you are coming from but your thinking is old. There are many issues regarding adoption that have come to light that were never thought of before as the children from the 60s and 70s age. 1970s being the height of adoption, it only makes sense. Sample sizes are larger and adult adoptees are able to contribute to the research and give a more complete perspective.
Would you please clarify the bolded statement? "Significantly more issues and at greater risk" than who? American children living with stable biological families, children living withstable biological families in other countries, children who are not adopted but who continue to live in orphanages and institutions in other countries, American children living in foster care?

It is not surprising that children who have been adopted either domestically or internationally would have more issues and be at higher risk than children living with stable biological families, but children who are adopted (along with children in foster care and the orphanage system) have already been separated from their biological families, either by relinquishment or by having been removed from their dysfunctional families by the authorities.

You cannot compare these children with those children who have had stable lives with their biological families and who have never undergone such experiences.

But you can compare children who have been adopted with children who remain in foster care in this country or in orphanages and institutions elsewhere. In this comparison, adopted children come out overwhelmingly ahead almost every time.

As you note, it is also important to take into account the age of the child at the time of adoption, the child and both families' heredity, any underlying health conditions, the quality of the care the child received prior to the adoption as well as the care received afterwards, and so on and on. Each case is different. But it is inarguable that it is better for a child to be adopted into a loving family of any nationality than to continue to be in foster care or live in an orphanage or institution.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:04 PM
 
297 posts, read 419,318 times
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Craig:
It is the neglect and survival techniques required to live in such places which lead to the problems you cite in children who have severe difficulty adjusting to family life after adoption, not adoption itself.

DL:
This is clearly not true if you look at the many studies regarding adopted children. Whether they are adopted as infants or older, domestic or international, there are significantly more issues and at higher risk just for the fact they are adopted. The other factors, such as age and culture just compound the issues.

I appreciate where you are coming from but your thinking is old. There are many issues regarding adoption that have come to light that were never thought of before as the children from the 60s and 70s age. 1970s being the height of adoption, it only makes sense. Sample sizes are larger and adult adoptees are able to contribute to the research and give a more complete perspective.

Craig:
Would you please clarify the bolded statement? "Significantly more issues and at greater risk" than who? American children living with stable biological families, children living withstable biological families in other countries, children who are not adopted but who continue to live in orphanages and institutions in other countries, American children living in foster care?
--------------------------------------

Craig, you are straying from the original point. Your point was that it's not "adoption itself". My point is that adopted children no matter what age or background have significantly more issues than non-adopted children and international adoptions only compounds the problem. You can adopt a child straight from the mother's womb and they will still be high risk for many issues. It is not the "neglect", it IS adoption itself. Neglect and institutionalization only clouds the already existing problem.

I like the statement that the APRC wrote regarding the ban:
MSR Online APRC statement on Russia
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:05 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,863,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
This has nothing to do with "UScentric" views. You do know that other other foreigners come into Russia to adopt as well? We had several Italian families there at the same time visiting children. Should they be allowed to adopt or are your concerns mostly geared towards Americans?

This has everything to do with giving a child a better life, whether it be with an American, Italian, Spanish, etc family. There are waiting children. There are adoptive parents out there that want to give a child a loving home. Really has nothing to do with any sense of idealism on our part or a UScentric view.

The foster system? Yes, I am actually open to this at some point. When we move and get settled somewhere, we will be looking into this. And your comment about drugs, crime exisiting in the US. Yes, you are right, they certainly do too. No place is perfect and every country has problems. However, after visiting Russia, as I said, it changed my perspective. Our region was very poor and in many ways, resembled a third world country. Unfortunately many of these institutionalized children have a very limited future in a depressed, poor region and their futures are bleak. I just saw Craig's post and he captured all of my sentiments so eloquently. Give that a careful read because he is spot on in his comments.
I think part of the problem is that some sending nations do feel that the US needs to improve their system in regards to approving adoption applications. Many people seem to be adopting internationally who seem to have no concept of what they are getting into - surely there is a way to make sure that applicants are as educated as possible. Though we have only talked about murdered children so far, there are also a large number of disruptions on the sly, especially amongst those who adopt to "rescue a child". There are IA blogs where the blogger often ask their readers to find new parents for children who have been adopted by people the blogger knows.

Btw it isn't always the US. There is a country in Africa that specifically banned the French from adopting there because of irregularities.

Some receiving countries do have very strict guidelines re approving applicants and one might then assume that that means those countries have less problems after the children have arrived home. Just a thought.

Catherine
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:32 AM
 
10,510 posts, read 8,441,653 times
Reputation: 19262
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
Craig:
It is the neglect and survival techniques required to live in such places which lead to the problems you cite in children who have severe difficulty adjusting to family life after adoption, not adoption itself.

DL:
This is clearly not true if you look at the many studies regarding adopted children. Whether they are adopted as infants or older, domestic or international, there are significantly more issues and at higher risk just for the fact they are adopted. The other factors, such as age and culture just compound the issues.

I appreciate where you are coming from but your thinking is old. There are many issues regarding adoption that have come to light that were never thought of before as the children from the 60s and 70s age. 1970s being the height of adoption, it only makes sense. Sample sizes are larger and adult adoptees are able to contribute to the research and give a more complete perspective.

Craig:
Would you please clarify the bolded statement? "Significantly more issues and at greater risk" than who? American children living with stable biological families, children living withstable biological families in other countries, children who are not adopted but who continue to live in orphanages and institutions in other countries, American children living in foster care?
--------------------------------------

Craig, you are straying from the original point. Your point was that it's not "adoption itself". My point is that adopted children no matter what age or background have significantly more issues than non-adopted children and international adoptions only compounds the problem. You can adopt a child straight from the mother's womb and they will still be high risk for many issues. It is not the "neglect", it IS adoption itself. Neglect and institutionalization only clouds the already existing problem.

I like the statement that the APRC wrote regarding the ban:
MSR Online APRC statement on Russia

So, I take it you are opposed to all adoption, since you believe that even children adopted "straight from the mother's womb" are at high risk for later problems. What, then, would you propose be done with the children who cannot safely remain in the care of their biological parents or extended biological families? What about the children who are literal orphans, who have lost both parents to death and who once again, have no extended family able to care for them? What do you propose be done with these children? Not to mention those children already in foster care, orphanages, and institutions?

I disagree that I am straying from the original point, as all of these factors contribute to the orphan crisis both in Russia and the rest of the world, and need to be fully examined.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:48 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 987,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
I disagree that I am straying from the original point, as all of these factors contribute to the orphan crisis both in Russia and the rest of the world, and need to be fully examined.
The orphan crisis is not solved by adoption. Even with all bands lifted, the crisis exists. Pretending like adoption does anything to solve this problem is like trying to put a band-aid on severed limbs.

Also, I don't think dogluvr will tell you they are against children being raised by families who are not related to them when it is necessary (please correct me if I am wrong). Being removed from their countries & adopted is not necessarily what's best regarding the orphan crisis.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:31 AM
 
10,510 posts, read 8,441,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
The orphan crisis is not solved by adoption. Even with all bands lifted, the crisis exists. Pretending like adoption does anything to solve this problem is like trying to put a band-aid on severed limbs.

Also, I don't think dogluvr will tell you they are against children being raised by families who are not related to them when it is necessary (please correct me if I am wrong). Being removed from their countries & adopted is not necessarily what's best regarding the orphan crisis.

I don't think that anyone knowledgable would argue that the orphan crisis can be solved by adoption, but it is inarguable that adoption can make a great positive difference for the majority of the children who are adopted - admittedly, those children are only a small portion of the orphaned children of the world.

So, what do you think IS best for those other children, the ones who cannot be reunified with their biological families for whatever reason, and who are presently living in foster care, orphanages, or institutions?

As I've noted, I and many others do what we can to assist various charities, ministries, and other NGOS who work to improve conditions. Others here speak out strongly for reforming laws concerning orphan care and adoption and ask for greater oversight. All this is good. But what else can we do to make things better for those children? How much influence to citizens of other countries have in attempting to encourage change upon the governments of countries in which the orphanage system is long-established? How much influence can we have in attempting to change public attitudes towards orphans and those with special needs in these same countries? Are we making any real difference by continuing to debate these issues so fervently here on C-D, or are we just preaching to our separate choirs?

Should we turn our efforts towards other means of affecting positive change? It's a vast problem, multirooted... but let's not lose sight of the real children who are caught up in the problems of their countries' societies and dysfunctions.

They are the innocents and the helpless and the needy. Most of them will never be adopted, never be reunified with their biological families, and will continue to live in "the system" until they age out or are sent to mental institutions for the rest of their days.

What can we do for them?
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:47 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 987,358 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
As I've noted, I and many others do what we can to assist various charities, ministries, and other NGOS who work to improve conditions. Others here speak out strongly for reforming laws concerning orphan care and adoption and ask for greater oversight. All this is good. But what else can we do to make things better for those children? How much influence to citizens of other countries have in attempting to encourage change upon the governments of countries in which the orphanage system is long-established? How much influence can we have in attempting to change public attitudes towards orphans and those with special needs in these same countries? Are we making any real difference by continuing to debate these issues so fervently here on C-D, or are we just preaching to our separate choirs?
Not having ultimate influence does not mean international adoption is for the greater good. People who are truly dedicated to the helping orphans would be prioritizing & contributing to many of the things you have noted here (or more) instead of adoption.

People who adopt internationally spend thousands of dollars. Just consider what good that money could do if they put it towards something other than adoption. Not saying they have any obligation to of course... however, they can't claim that their choice to adopt does anything to help the orphan crisis, either.
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