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Old 01-29-2013, 02:14 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,979,464 times
Reputation: 2365

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery_Harper View Post
Glad we agree.

From your source that you offered in your thread: Adoption Does Save Children and Builds Families Numbers two and six would apply. However, if you read on in your source that you said was a "great article" you will see that your article confirms that

http://www.city-data.com/forum/27973947-post1.html
If people want an open adoption, that is their choice. I never stated otherwise, It's not for me or my husband. Not at least, as it is practiced by some. Our adoption will include, when possible, all information about the family of origin and medical histories. The ongoing interraction between birth parents and their baby is what I don't want in my adoption. A letter from the birth mother or father, their real names, will suffice for us.

Yes, my article confirms that some openess is standard today because the stigma surrounding adoption has changed a lot.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:47 PM
 
Location: California
167 posts, read 152,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
If people want an open adoption, that is their choice. I never stated otherwise, It's not for me or my husband. Not at least, as it is practiced by some. Our adoption will include, when possible, all information about the family of origin and medical histories. The ongoing interraction between birth parents and their baby is what I don't want in my adoption. A letter from the birth mother or father, their real names, will suffice for us.

Yes, my article confirms that some openess is standard today because the stigma surrounding adoption has changed a lot.
That's an identified partially open adoption, not a closed adoption. Will you be giving the first parents your real name as well? Did you really think it was a "great article"? It seems contradictory to many of your core beliefs about domestic adoption as practiced today, imho.

Last edited by Avery_Harper; 01-29-2013 at 04:11 PM..
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:53 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,854,464 times
Reputation: 1462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
If people want an open adoption, that is their choice. I never stated otherwise, It's not for me or my husband. Not at least, as it is practiced by some. Our adoption will include, when possible, all information about the family of origin and medical histories. The ongoing interraction between birth parents and their baby is what I don't want in my adoption. A letter from the birth mother or father, their real names, will suffice for us.

Yes, my article confirms that some openess is standard today because the stigma surrounding adoption has changed a lot.
I got the impression from the article that though some of those parents may have felt that open adoption wasn't personally want they would have wanted for themselves, they felt that open adoption was for their child. I know a few APs who have said that they wanted to do what is best for their child, not what was for comfortable for them.

Disclaimer: Note that I am not saying that open adoption is always right for a child, just that some APs may feel that they chose open adoption for themselves, rather than their child. I know other APs who have felt this way.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:03 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,854,464 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
I'm just writing one post in response to all those who commented on mine. First, let me be clear, there are some birth mothers who wan reunion. These are likely the same birth mothers who also wanted to parent, but for various reasons, could not.

Second, being someone's biological child does not give you the right to be in that person's life. It's unfair, I know. But no one asks to be born. As such, since none of us played an active role in our conception, why do so many of you fail to believe that this would also hold true in determining our fate after birth? I'll rephrase: just as getting pregnant in no way proves one's ability to parent, being born in no way guarantees full access to our biological parent's lives.
No-one is saying that we want to force our way into people's lives. I was always prepared for my biological family to say "no, we aren't interested" and I would have accepted that and walked away without a backward glance (though I would have asked what my bmom died of as I did feel that was important).

I live in an open records country and was born in a country that is also open records and if a woman doesn't want contact from her biological child, she can put a veto on contact, and vice versa (i.e. if a child doesn't want contact). I feel that this actually gives a bmother more control than in a closed state.

One thing I found interesting from watching the US version of "Find your Family" is that quite a few adoptees got their information, including OBCs and names, from their adoptive parents. So it seems that quite a few adoptive parents were given information at the time of the birth by the agencies. If it was about the birthparent's privacy, then why would the adoptive parents get information. This, to me, confirms that it was the adoptive parents who were promised privacy and received legal protection, rather than the biological parents (they may have been promised privacy but they received no legal protection (it wasn't for them)).

Quote:
Third, as adults, anyone may search for whomever they choose. I have no problem with this. I do however have a problem with the universal unsealing of adoption records without any regard for all parties involved. This is senseless and selfish.
A lot of thought is always put into opening records and everyone's wishes, so it is hardly "without regard for all parties involved". Also, most adoptees I know are extremely respectful of their bparents wishes. I know of none who have just barged into their bparents life demanding to be known. In fact, most adoptees I know have a fear of rejection in regards to contacting so barging into their bparents life wouldn't make much sense would it. It would be far more sensible to take it gently so that one gets the best possible outcome.

Quote:
I have no problem with adult adoptees having access to their OBC, preferably with at LEAST one birth parent's consent.
The problem is that seealed records never had anything to do with the birthfamily's privacty, it was always about the adoptive parents and child's privacy. In fact, if a women relinquished her child and for some reason, the child wasn't adopted, then that child will always be able to access their original birth certificate. The OBC is sealed after adoption takes place. It was sealed so that the adoptive famililes could live their lives "without interference from the birth families".

Quote:
Why, because every adoption involves unique circumstances which should always be taken into consideration and respected.

Fourth, more adoptee's search for birth parents than the other way around. But as some have pointed out, some adoptee's don't want to be found! Here's some for you: Birth parents hunting down adoptees.
I note that many of those are from foster care situations in the UK where the child was a lot older. It would be far harder with infant adoption. In fact, in NZ, I believe that a birth parent can't access birth certificates without permission from the child.

Quote:
Fifth and final, every news article I've read about the unsealing of birth records indicates two types of birth mothers: Those who feel they were coereced or regret, and those who still want to remain anonymous. In Oregon and NJ, the latter have spoken out. Many will not, because it would reveal who they are and the decision they made years ago. Again, there are plenty of birth mothers who want privacy. I believe they have a right to their privacy.

Re; ancestry.com...no comment, as it is completely irrelevant and unrelated.
These bmothers were found by the NCFA and adoptive agencies. There were also many of the former but they had a lot less money behind them.

Those bmothers from Oregon and New Jersey are still anonymous and if they wish not to be contacted by their children, they can place a veto of some sort. Their children will not be able to contact them against their wishes.

Last edited by susankate; 01-29-2013 at 05:24 PM..
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:36 PM
 
1,097 posts, read 1,726,339 times
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Allowing adults access to their OBC's is not Open Adoption.

But in any case, I'd be interested to hear why adopted parents don't want adult adoptees to have access to their OBC's, reasons that don't include positing what birth parents and adult adoptees want or think.

I think[but am not sure] that even if it was shown that the vast majority of birth parents and adult adoptees supported re-opening sealed OBC's to adult adoptees, some APs would still object. Why do some Adoptive parents not want this? How does it effect them or their child adoptees?

Just as a practical matter, AP's have 18 to 21 yrs to raise their children. They pass on their beliefs, values etc. They have raised their child etc. How does an adult adoptee getting their OBC, if they want it, effect APs ?
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:49 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,854,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
I was responding to the post of another who claimed that her/his birth parent did not want to see her and is in denial.

Also, for the record, I am in favor of sealed birth records. I don't know what the big deal is about health records is either. If you find out a close relative had lung cancer, how will that change your life? Don't smoke or work in a coal ,mine. Eat well. Sometimes I really wish that I didn't know of the diseases that run in my family.

I again, really do not doubt the pain of each and every one of you, but it seems that it is misdirected. After you get the obc what next? Do you want to crawl into the woman's lap? Be a part of her family? How about your own families? Yes, those people who adopted and raised you? Where does that leave them? What about working out any issues you may have with them? If you tell me your family was perfect it sends up a major red flag to me. No family is perfect.

Were your adoptive parents cold and rejecting? I have news for you. There are also cold and rejecting biological parents who raise their children from infancy. These adult children often suffer from depression., anxiety, substance abuse, difficulty in forming relationships and more. And they were not adopted.

Loving adoptive parents are just as capable of raising emotionally stable and healthy children as are loving biological parents. Biology has nothing to do with it. A certificate and a list of family diseases is not going to correct the anguish of parental rejection, weather at the hands of a bio parent or an adoptive parent.

I still suggest therapy. With a competent regular therapist with no anti adoption agenda.
Really I thought that the days of suggesting therapy being used as a put down, were long gone. Look inside for feelings of incompleteness or depression. Not outside.
Quote:
I again, really do not doubt the pain of each and every one of you, but it seems that it is misdirected.
Huh? Hey, I admit I feel frustration but that has nothing to do with my personal situation, it is purely to do with misunderstandings.

Quote:
Do you want to crawl into the woman's lap?
Really? Wanting our OBC means that we are doing so because we want to climb into our bmom's lap? Really?
Quote:

Be a part of her family?
If that is what both parties desire, there is nothing wrong with that.
Quote:

How about your own families? Yes, those people who adopted and raised you? Where does that leave them? What about working out any issues you may have with them? If you tell me your family was perfect it sends up a major red flag to me. No family is perfect.
This make me sad, Warren. Where you say "where does that leave them", it comes across as sounding like you feel that an adoptive parent is being left high and dry if their child, even as an adult, desires reunion. As far as I'm concerned, Warren, my adoptive parents are still in the same spot they always were in my life - they are going nowhere. They have never had problems re contact. I love them no less than before. Actually, only mum has been alive since my making contact and, in fact, though I have been very respectful about any feelings she may or may not have, I have very much appreciated that she understood that my making contact had nothing to do with any feelings I had about her or dad. Btw I've actually heard a lot of adoptees say that when they have supportive parents, they end up loving their parents even more than before.

Of course, my parents weren't perfect, as you say, no-one's parents are. They are humans like everyone else, they have their good and bad points - same with my biological family. That is something that I do understand - everyone in my family, afamily or bfamily, are human beings and should be treated as such.

Btw, it is possible to have more than one family. Many married people have 2 families apart from their own children - many married people consider their in-laws to be family. I am not married but to me, it would be just like having in-laws - I've just got more family than before

Quote:

Loving adoptive parents are just as capable of raising emotionally stable and healthy children as are loving biological parents
As an emotionally stable and healthy person, I think I am proof of that. I also suspect I would have grown up stable and healthy in my bio family. Btw I am unsure as to what someone's stability or mental health has to do with them searching - it is irrelevant. Some people are curious, some are not - as simple as that.

Quote:

Look inside for feelings of incompleteness or depression
I had no feelings of incompleteness or depression - it had nothing to do with my searching. Finding my bfamily enhanced my life, something I was not necessarily expecting. It did not fill an "empty spot", it just added to my life. That is my situation and not all adoptees will have that experience.

Last edited by susankate; 01-29-2013 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Warren, OH
2,748 posts, read 3,320,288 times
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I have asked several times and I really do want to know - what do you think is contained in original birth records? All I have is a birth certificate. What is it that you want? The medical records of your birth?

Other than a birth certificate, I am not sure what "Birth Records" are.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Warren, OH
2,748 posts, read 3,320,288 times
Reputation: 6467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nj185 View Post
Allowing adults access to their OBC's is not Open Adoption.

But in any case, I'd be interested to hear why adopted parents don't want adult adoptees to have access to their OBC's, reasons that don't include positing what birth parents and adult adoptees want or think.

I think[but am not sure] that even if it was shown that the vast majority of birth parents and adult adoptees supported re-opening sealed OBC's to adult adoptees, some APs would still object. Why do some Adoptive parents not want this? How does it effect them or their child adoptees?

Just as a practical matter, AP's have 18 to 21 yrs to raise their children. They pass on their beliefs, values etc. They have raised their child etc. How does an adult adoptee getting their OBC, if they want it, effect APs ?

I don't care if my daughter saw or had her birth certificate. She does not care at this point either.

Absolutely right - our daughter is ours and at 16, almost 17, she has no interest or reason to view this. She wants her Birth Certificate - the one that she would use to get a passport for example, to have the names of her parents on it.

What other birth records are you alluding to?

I don't think that anyone cares if you see your birth certificate. I don't.

Is it that you want your birth parent's names on it and not your parents names?
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:27 PM
 
Location: California
167 posts, read 152,958 times
Reputation: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
I have asked several times and I really do want to know - what do you think is contained in original birth records? All I have is a birth certificate. What is it that you want? The medical records of your birth?

Other than a birth certificate, I am not sure what "Birth Records" are.
https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemw...foaccessap.cfm
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:45 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,854,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
I don't think that anyone cares if you see your birth certificate. I don't.
Good to hear you don't. So you will support anyone on here who just wants to see their original birth certificate? They just want to see the name of the person who gave birth to them, that is all. No-one is asking for anything more.

It is not true that no-one cares if US adoptees see their original birth certificates. Every time a state thinks about opening their records, the NCFA and adoption industry are doing everything they can to prevent this happening.

Quote:
Is it that you want your birth parent's names on it and not your parents names?
No, they just want to see the name they had at birth and/or their biological parents name.
Quote:

All I have is a birth certificate. What is it that you want?
That is all anyone wants - a copy of their original birth certificate with the names of their biological parents.

In regards to other birth records, in closed record states they can receive non-ID information (i.e. information without names) which gives the adoptee some background without giving them any names. Once one has the birth certificate, then that adoptee can put a name to information on the non-ID information.

In an open records country, eg NZ, one receives the OBC first and can then ask for the information. Having both the name AND the information helped me to confirm that I had the right person. However, non-ID information isn't always accurate, and even in regards to the reasons for adoption, it was not always accurate either (it could depend on the interviewer and their interpretation of the bparents reasons).

Thus, in both closed and open records states, one can receive information, but in a closed records state, the adoptee can receive non-ID info but cannot receive their OBC with a name, and in an open records state, they get the OBC first and then their (non-ID) information.

Last edited by susankate; 01-29-2013 at 08:59 PM..
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