Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting > Adoption
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-19-2013, 12:27 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 1,188,805 times
Reputation: 837

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizita View Post
On the Kickstarter site there is an option at the bottom of the page to ask a question. It doesn't say that you have to be a backer to use that function. I'm going to check if it works.
The FAQ section. I submitted my own question, hope everyone else here will too. Thanks for your support if you do,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-19-2013, 12:46 PM
 
12,003 posts, read 11,828,052 times
Reputation: 22681
Was this book self-published??

Interesting that in the adoption community at large, "trolls" are those anonymous commenters who post deliberately hurtful, accusatory things about would-be adoptive families (especially those adopting children with special needs) and adoption in general...Another indication of the general unawareness of the writers of this book, it would appear.

Last edited by CraigCreek; 02-19-2013 at 01:00 PM.. Reason: To clarify that the adoption community at large is not the same as the C-D adoption forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 12:53 PM
 
297 posts, read 501,092 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Was this book self-published??

Interesting that in the adoption community, "trolls" are those anonymous commenters who post deliberately hurtful, accusatory things about would-be adoptive families (especially those adopting children with special needs) and adoption in general...Another indication of the general unawareness of the writers of this book, it would appear.
The book isn't published. They are trying to raise funds to publish it.
Moderator cut: off topic

Last edited by Marka; 02-23-2013 at 05:34 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 01:07 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 1,188,805 times
Reputation: 837
Moderator cut: off topic

I do agree that the authors of the book have a general unawareness for adoptee issues! They think they are "helping," by including children who feel different -- yet they are unaware that they are contributing to adoptees feeling different by portraying them as subhuman. Hopefully APs, PAPs, & adoptees will have a chance to educate them before they adopt.

Last edited by Marka; 02-23-2013 at 05:35 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
49,932 posts, read 59,671,004 times
Reputation: 98359
"Troll" is a common term throughout the internet to indicate someone who intentionally posts very incendiary comments on any online forum, not just in the adoption community. "Trolls" just want to start trouble, for fun.

This slang definition of "troll" has basically supplanted the original definition and probably would be the first thing anyone thought of when they heard it.

This whole book escapade perfectly illustrates best intentions gone awry. This clueless young couple is apparently so wrapped up in their own "troubles" that they don't see the harm their idea could cause.

I'm surprised the newspaper doesn't have a "comments" feature.

Last edited by Marka; 02-23-2013 at 05:36 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 01:57 PM
 
12,003 posts, read 11,828,052 times
Reputation: 22681
Thanks - no, of course I don't think that those who oppose international adoption are necessarily trolls. I do think that many such people are highly idealistic (which is good) and not particularly well-informed (which is not so good) about the daily lives of the children living in the orphanages and institutions around the world, and of the circumstances which led to their becoming "orphans" and living in orphanages and institutions, and of the cultures and traditional views of the peoples of many of the countries in which such places can be found.

As I expect we all do, I agree that it would be wonderful if fewer children were orphaned in the first place, that more families of origin were functional and encouraged to keep their children, and that failing these things, that children would be adopted by loving families of their own nationalities. I also think it would be wonderful if the health needs of all children, including those with special needs, could be adequately addressed within their own countries, and if special education, therapies, and accessibility were the rules, not the exceptions, in the developing world, so that parents of children with special needs would not be encouraged to sign over custody of their children at birth or shortly thereafter.

But...since around 80% of the children residing in orphanages and institutions are "social orphans" whose custody has been signed over to the state either voluntarily by the parents or whose parents have lost custody due to neglect and abuse (often due to alcoholism - vodka is cheaper than bottled water in much of eastern Europe), and since there is little support for families of children with special needs to keep and rear those children, and since adoption, espcially special needs adoption, is not part of the cultures of many of the countries from which children are currently frequently adopted into western countries, what do you suggest be done for those children who presently are living in the orphanages and institutions?

Clearly changes of various kinds are needed within their own countries, and I support those changes - but childhood doesn't last long, and meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of children are institutionalized around the world.

Adoption doesn't solve the problem entirely, be it domestic or international - but it does make a huge difference for those few who are adopted by loving, functional families, whatever their nationalities.

In regard to the children who are highly unlikely to be adopted or reunified with their biological families but who are currently living in the orphanages, as I've mentioned here before, there are a number of honest and effective charitable non-profits which work with the children in the orphanages and institutions of the world. I can personally recommend four or five of such groups, which are not adoption oriented, but which do fine work which directly and positively impacts the daily lives and well-being of these children. There are a variety of ways in which individuals can assist these organizations and can be assured that that good will result. If you or any others reading this would like to learn more, just send me a PM. I am not affiliated with these groups in any way, but support and can recommend them to others who want to help.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 02:15 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 1,188,805 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Thanks - no, of course I don't think that those who oppose international adoption are necessarily trolls. I do think that many such people are highly idealistic (which is good) and not particularly well-informed (which is not so good) about the daily lives of the children living in the orphanages and institutions around the world, and of the circumstances which led to their becoming "orphans" and living in orphanages and institutions, and of the cultures and traditional views of the peoples of many of the countries in which such places can be found.
Cool. I feel that those who are pro-international adoption are highly idealistic & not particularly well-informed about the ethical problems with adoption. I'm glad we both agree that this difference in opinion is not trolling as both POVs are important to the discourse.

Quote:
But...since around 80% of the children residing in orphanages and institutions are "social orphans" whose custody has been signed over to the state either voluntarily by the parents or whose parents have lost custody due to neglect and abuse (often due to alcoholism - vodka is cheaper than bottled water in much of eastern Europe), and since there is little support for families of children with special needs to keep and rear those children, and since adoption, espcially special needs adoption, is not part of the cultures of many of the countries from which children are currently frequently adopted into western countries, what do you suggest be done for those children who presently are living in the orphanages and institutions?
Well, what would be the best for children would be more government resources given to those who want to raise children with special needs, as well as much effort put into changing the stigma of raising such children. Most of the children adopted were not children with special needs, so implying that children adopted from Russia are those who "would not be accepted for special needs" is not accurate.

Quote:
Adoption doesn't solve the problem entirely, be it domestic or international - but it does make a huge difference for those few who are adopted by loving, functional families, whatever their nationalities.
Yes, but it also makes things worse for those who are adopted by people who are not functional. This reality should not be ignored or passed over.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 03:11 PM
 
12,003 posts, read 11,828,052 times
Reputation: 22681
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
Cool. I feel that those who are pro-international adoption are highly idealistic & not particularly well-informed about the ethical problems with adoption. I'm glad we both agree that this difference in opinion is not trolling as both POVs are important to the discourse.

We'll have to agree to disagree re "highly idealistic" people of any stripe. Idealism has its place, certainly, but so does realism, about both the plight of the waiting children and ethics in adoption. It's sad when the two noble objectives bump heads and alienate those who should be allies, in seeking the best interests of children without families.

Well, what would be the best for children would be more government resources given to those who want to raise children with special needs, as well as much effort put into changing the stigma of raising such children. Most of the children adopted were not children with special needs, so implying that children adopted from Russia are those who "would not be accepted for special needs" is not accurate.

My previous post was not limited to children who were adopted from Russia.

Obviously, more government resources and changing the stigma of special needs are indicated - I'm not sure how those of other nationalities than those of the "sending countries" can go about changing this, however, and it's also worth noting that the countries known for their orphanage systems are also not known for spending adequately upon such systems or upon parental support of the kind you describe.

Perhaps making the potential and abilities of individuals with special needs better known to their populations at large - not just to parents - would be a good start, along with conducting in-house workshops and demonstrations for both parents and orphanage staff members on how to better care for kids with special needs.

There is an Arkansas-based non-profit organization of nurses and therapists who've traveled to Ukraine's orphanages for just this purpose, and another American special needs adoption ministry has been instrumental in starting a Ukrainian support group for parents who decide to retain custody of their children with special needs.

The Ukrainian adoption ministry (which changes its name every few years - can't remember the current version and don't have time to check!) now actively promotes adoption of children with special needs (especially Down syndrome) - its Kiev office now featuring colorful posters of thriving children with special needs who've been adopted. Russia now states that they are going to heavily promote domestic adoption, and I hope this comes to pass quickly. I have not read any statements from Russia about its many institutionalized children with special needs, however.

I do know that around six such children did slip in under the wire and are now home or almost home in the U.S. with their adoptive families. Russia seems to do a mostly decent job of caring for small children and babies with special needs - until they leave the "baby house" at around age four and are transferred to adult-level mental institutions in most cases, where they receive no special therapies and little if any education. Their chances of being adopted by fellow Russians are very, very slim. I've seen "before" and "after transfer" photos of these little ones which are shocking. This happens to children with physical special needs as well as to children with developmental delays, and also happens in most of the former Soviet Union and Soviet bloc countries, sadly.

Yes, but it also makes things worse for those who are adopted by people who are not functional. This reality should not be ignored or passed over.
Of course, and no one is ignoring this. Such tragedies should never occur, either in famillies of any origin or in the orphanages and institutions. The well-being of children should be the primary focus in all cases.

Far more children die of neglect and abuse within the Russian orphanage system than in adoptive homes, both based numerically and as a percentage. Also in Russia, a far higher percentage of domestically adopted children are killed and abused than in the U.S. It's tragic and inexcusable in any case, of course...but a child's chances of survival are much higher in an American adoptive family than either in a Russian orphanage or a Russian adoptive family. Better screening of adult caregivers, parental or not, is needed in all these cases, as is better protection of the children, both here and abroad.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 03:34 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 1,188,805 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek;28321419[B
]Far more children die of neglect and abuse within the Russian orphanage system than in adoptive homes, both based numerically and as a percentage.
This is because there are hundreds of thousands of children who remain within the Russian orphanage system compared to those who are adopted (even without a ban). To try to frame this problem any other way to promote adoption is dishonest as best.

As for your claim that Russian adoptive parents are more likely to abuse adoptees than American adoptive parents, I would have to see resources that confirm this before I give the claim any credit. Do you have any?

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 02-19-2013 at 03:42 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2013, 04:11 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 1,188,805 times
Reputation: 837
BTW, I have contacted them through the FAQ section of their Kickstarter. They have not responded back yet, but I will let you know when or if they do. Those who feel this story is inappropriate should consider voicing their opinion to the author as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting > Adoption

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top