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Old 03-26-2013, 11:12 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,664 posts, read 23,241,522 times
Reputation: 48852

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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Do you realize how many mothers have trouble breastfeeding their children? It's not easy at all and many women give up because of the frustration of a baby refusing to nurse. That is why lactation consultants are so important.

I had to leave my bio son in the hospital for 10 days and he was bottlefed. When we got him home he wanted nothing to do with me. I knew it would be best for both of us and with the help of an incredibly supportive pediatrician I finally got him to nurse. We nursed for more than 2 years and I have to say it was one of the most satisfying experiences of my life. So yes I did not respect his "boundaries" and I'm so glad I didn't.
This is SO TRUE! Biological mothers are not automatically "good at breast feeding". Not in the least.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:17 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,664 posts, read 23,241,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
Okay, so it's basically personally discomforting for you. I get it.
Yeah this pretty much sums up the objections thus far. It makes them "uncomfortable".

No one who I know, who is comfortable with adoption, and yes; I mean views it as just another way to build a family, sees it that way.

No, not one person. Could there be a connection?
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:30 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,862,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Our bio son was a bit over 2 when we adopted a 3 month old baby from Korea. DS was still comfort- nursing twice a day so I was happy to try to nurse our daughter. She latched on several times for about the first 2 weeks but there was not much milk there and she had gained very little weight her first 3 months of life so i was uncomfortable pushing her to nurse exclusively. Soon enough she was gaining weight with formula, loved cuddling with me and it just wasn't as important to me.
I was told in Korea wet nurses are available to be foster moms for babies waiting to be adopted. Also that birth mothers are eager to get these women to be foster moms. No worry about another woman nursing their children at all. Frankly I can't imagine why a birth mother planning to place her child for adoption would have a problem with the adoptive mother nursing. If she has decided not to parent she has no right to ask an adoptive mother not to nurse. This would tell me she wasn't really good with her adoption plan and I would reconsider that adoption.

Even with open adoptions, the birth mother has no business telling the adoptive family what to do or how to do it.
NK your scenario re your daughter makes a lot of sense to me.

Quote:

This would tell me she wasn't really good with her adoption plan and I would reconsider that adoption.
I tend to think that agencies often throw bones to the birthmom to make her think she actually has some choice. I actually think adoption professionals should be a lot more blunt about what relinqiishment/adoption is about and to make it clear to emoms that they really don't have a leg to stand on legally.

I remember on another forum where there were combined APs/BPs and adoptees, there used to be emoms writing in about whether to go ahead with relinquishment/adoption. I remember there used to be an AP on that forum who was excellent at stating the actual hard cold facts of what relinquishment involved legally and factually so that the emom knew what she was in for in that regards.

Also, some of the so-called "positive adoption language" also doesn't really help either. Part of the problem with a lot of adoption language is that it inserts "adoption" into "relinquishment" whereas they should really be separate. For example, "making an adoption plan" sort of glosses over the fact that the emom will be surrendering her child for adoption.

I really do think that relinquishment/adoption needs to be kept separate. This is why I feel all relinquishment of rights and subsequent adoptions should only be done through human services agencies as the majority of adoption agencies/attorneys/professionals, by their very nature of their business really being that second step - adoption, are doing a job that isn't really their job to do, i.e. counselling women on their child's future.

Btw I think the wrong first question is being asked of emoms many a time. Instead of "are you in a position to parent", the very first question should be "are you in a position to be making a decision about your child's future" - by asking this latter question, those in the position of counselling a woman can first help that woman get to a place where she is ready to make her important decision as while pregnant, she is the custodian of that child. It may well be that adoption may well still be the answer.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,484 posts, read 43,763,062 times
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susankate. I'm confused. Are you stating that when a birth mother "makes an adoption plan" or "places her child for adoption" or "relinquishes" her child, she really isn't aware that she is giving up her child, all legal rights, all future rights, etc?

The "makes an adoption plan" language was advanced to be a phrase with a more realistic approach than "put her child UP for adoption". It puts power in the hands of the birth mother, gives her more control of the situation and has less of a visual than somebody actually lifting a baby UP for adoption.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:48 AM
 
1,097 posts, read 1,733,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
susankate. I'm confused. Are you stating that when a birth mother "makes an adoption plan" or "places her child for adoption" or "relinquishes" her child, she really isn't aware that she is giving up her child, all legal rights, all future rights, etc?

The "makes an adoption plan" language was advanced to be a phrase with a more realistic approach than "put her child UP for adoption". It puts power in the hands of the birth mother, gives her more control of the situation and has less of a visual than somebody actually lifting a baby UP for adoption.
The reality is that any power in the hands of the birth mother stops the second she signs relinquishment papers, as people here have pointed out. AP's can pretty much do what they want, legally, and ignore any discussions or agreements made privately. Leading the birth mother to believe that an adoption plan has any life beyond relinquishment is just not reality.

Ethically, morally, many AP's do otherwise and honor things discussed before relinquishment.

I don't think we can have it both ways. How can you 'put power in the hands of the birth mother' and at the same time say 'the birth mother has no business telling the adoptive family what to do or how to do it'?

What power she has lies before relinquishment, and if B4 relinquishment she is told she is allowed a preference in choosing families, & adoptive breastfeeding is a big deal for her, then she should be able to rule out an adamant breastfeeding advocate, whether or not anyone feels her reasons are valid.

Adopted mothers breastfeeding, at least in the US, is controversial as any quick web search will show. People hold strong feelings about it one way or the other and few find that someone's opposing views have merit.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,484 posts, read 43,763,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nj185 View Post
The reality is that any power in the hands of the birth mother stops the second she signs relinquishment papers, as people here have pointed out. AP's can pretty much do what they want, legally, and ignore any discussions or agreements made privately. Leading the birth mother to believe that an adoption plan has any life beyond relinquishment is just not reality.

Ethically, morally, many AP's do otherwise and honor things discussed before relinquishment.

I don't think we can have it both ways. How can you 'put power in the hands of the birth mother' and at the same time say 'the birth mother has no business telling the adoptive family what to do or how to do it'?

What power she has lies before relinquishment, and if B4 relinquishment she is told she is allowed a preference in choosing families, & adoptive breastfeeding is a big deal for her, then she should be able to rule out an adamant breastfeeding advocate, whether or not anyone feels her reasons are valid.

Adopted mothers breastfeeding, at least in the US, is controversial as any quick web search will show. People hold strong feelings about it one way or the other and few find that someone's opposing views have merit.
Because surely birth mothers realize once they sign that paper all influence or control or wishes are null and void. If any birth mother thinks she can have any influence on how her child is raised or nurtured by an adoptive family she is very naive and has not been properly counseled about what adoption really is.

I think this issue might be one reason why some adoptive families are not keen on open adoption. I certainly would not a birth mother telling me what school to send my child to, whether or not i could home school, how to dress or care for my child. But she DOES have power and control about who she chooses to parent her child and if she indeed cannot parent or does not wish to. In the olden days unwed mothers had no power at all. Most were sent away in shame to homes for unwed mothers with no real input into what happened to them or their child. I'm glad this has changed over the decades. Now, for the most part and especially for domestic adoptions adoptive parents can be reasonably sure that the birth mother was not forced into placing her child for adoption. Not so sure in international adoption.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:58 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 986,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Do you realize how many mothers have trouble breastfeeding their children? It's not easy at all and many women give up because of the frustration of a baby refusing to nurse. That is why lactation consultants are so important.
Yes, I realize this. & I will note that I didn't say failure to latch I said if the child repeatedly & outright rejects breast-feeding that IMO it is a violation of boundaries to force the child to comply in some of the ways I have read. I never mentioned your personal experience. I also said if the child expresses that they've changed their mind on their own terms, that is completely different.

That is my opinion & I am entitled to it. There is no evidence to show that bottle-feeding breast milk with skin-to-skin contact is any less beneficial than breast feeding. So why force it if it obviously distresses the child to do so?
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:04 AM
 
509 posts, read 484,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
Yes, I realize this. & I will note that I didn't say failure to latch I said if the child repeatedly & outright rejects breast-feeding that it is a violation of boundaries to force the child to comply in some of the ways I have read. I never mentioned your personal experience. I also said if the child expresses that they've changed their mind on their own terms, that is completely different.

That is my opinion & I am entitled to it. There is no evidence to show that bottle-feeding breast milk with skin-to-skin contact is any less beneficial than breast feeding. So why force it if it obviously distresses the child to do so?
I'm not sure about these cases of outright distress and forcing children to breastfeed. I've never seen or read anything like that, and I'm friends with a lot if breastfeeding mamas. Could you share please?
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,661 posts, read 3,670,639 times
Reputation: 10620
It's not new-news to me, but I run in a pretty crunchy crowd. Good for you for lactating for your little one!
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:10 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 986,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
I'm not sure about these cases of outright distress and forcing children to breastfeed. I've never seen or read anything like that, and I'm friends with a lot if breastfeeding mamas. Could you share please?
Tiff, they were blogs & posters who shared tips in adoption communities that I have come across over the years. In the same way that I have seen attachment therapies for children who allegedly have RAD have crossed lines, these have.

I never saved them or I would provide links.

In no way am I saying all adoptive parents who breast feed are like that -- I tried to be very clear about it being an exception.
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