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Old 03-27-2013, 02:26 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
True. In America it is viewed differently than other countries. I didn't read where she forced feeding. I haven't read that view expressed here either. But I was unaware that toddler adoptive mothers breastfed like infant/baby adoptive mothers. If no forcing is done however, perhaps the child was familiar with breastfeeding before the adoption? One has to wonder.
Threefold mentioned APs who use extensive measures and force their adopted children to breastfeed. I must admit, I'm a bit skeptical as I don't even understand how this is physically possible. I also can't imagine openly writing about it as it could be construed quite easily as abuse.

Now, if one's opinion of forcing is different than what I'm picturing, then ok. But since no one can provide any examples, it's hard for me to say.
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Old 03-27-2013, 02:30 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 988,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
I asked for examples of mothers, specifically adoptive mothers, who have forcefully breastfed their children.
They were not responding to you. They were responding to me & just commenting on how many people breastfeed/attempt to breastfeed children they adopted as toddlers in general.

Quote:
Offering your child your breast to nurse isn't what i picture as forcing. It's providing an option.

Jamie has two sons, not a daughter, so I'm not sure where your quote is from (guest poster??), especially taken out of context with no link. If you could provide a link to the post, maybe I can get a clearer idea of what you are referring to.
Woops! You're right. I did a quick google & came across a guest-poster. My mistake. Here is the link of the guest poster I came across:

Breastfeeding An Adopted Older Child- Toddlerhood and Beyond

As for force vs. offering another option. How would you define force? In my mind force/coercion are not always violent acts. Repeatedly offering a breast to a child who for over a year "wants nothing to do with them" could cross a line for some people. I would not jump to any assumptions based on such little detail.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 03-27-2013 at 02:53 PM..
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Old 03-27-2013, 02:52 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,847 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
They were not responding to you. They were responding to me & just commenting on how many people breastfeed/attempt to breastfeed children they adopted as toddlers in general.
Goodness. I'm thoroughly confused on who is responding to who and what and where we are at then.

Quote:
Woops! You're right. I did a quick google & came across a guest-poster. My mistake. Here is the link of the guest poster I came across:

Breastfeeding An Adopted Older Child- Toddlerhood and Beyond

As for force vs. offering another option. How would you define force? In my mind force/coercion are not always violent acts. Repeatedly offering a breast to a child who for over a year "wants nothing to do with them" could cross a line for some people.
You and I got very different things from that post. I was touched by it, by the budding attachment between a mother and child. While I think it's more common for an adopted baby to nurse, I think with an older child, as in this case, there was an element of needing to get to know her mom before feeling comfortable with this type of contact.

There were absolutely no specifics given. She told about the one time, then talked about pumping, then said her daughter decided to latch. We don't know about the process, how frequently she offered or anything.

No, I don't think offering to allow a child to choose to nurse is necessarily coercion or force. I nursed my daughter until almost three. Many times I offered to nurse her and she was not interested. That's not force or coercion. Now, if I knew more about the situation and say, the child was crying, the mom was trying to make her nurse, or using words and promises to coerce. That would be wrong. But simply offering, then respecting if the child declined, no, I don't see how that is force or coercion. Breastfeeding isn't a bad thing, do trying to get a child used to the idea isn't wrong to me. She wanted nothing to do with them in the beginning. Again, the woman was a stranger. Older child adoptions are challenging for this reason. I don't find it particularly odd that with growing attachment, the daughter eventually embraced the idea.

I don't really think she used extensive measures, either. She seemed perfectly accepting of the idea that her child wouldn't nurse. Even before they adopted, she said she recognized it might not happen.
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:13 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 988,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
There were absolutely no specifics given. She told about the one time, then talked about pumping, then said her daughter decided to latch. We don't know about the process, how frequently she offered or anything.

No, I don't think offering to allow a child to choose to nurse is necessarily coercion or force.
I agree 100%.

Quote:
Now, if I knew more about the situation and say, the child was crying, the mom was trying to make her nurse, or using words and promises to coerce. That would be wrong.
I wouldn't have used that mom as an example for the posts/blogs I was discussing earlier in the thread. I was just saying depending on what the details were they could have crossed a line for some people.

In the posts/blogs I came across the parents went into great detail about how upset the children were & what they did to eventually convince the child to nurse. No one talked about it being violent, but like I said I don't believe force has to be. Off the top of my head there were things like not letting them have their bottle/sippy cup until they agreed to nurse or attempting to initiate breastfeeding after the child fell asleep.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 03-27-2013 at 03:38 PM..
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Chicago area
1,105 posts, read 2,918,036 times
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I was nursed by a friend of my mom's a number of times as a baby and my mom nursed her baby too. I'm not quite sure why but I assume it was a practicality issue. My parents were pretty broke and probably couldn't afford formula and the friend had a baby my age so I guess they helped each other out. It doesn't bother me at all that another woman breastfed me.

I do agree that the concerns over potential negative effects of using drugs to induce lactation, the concerns over the psychological problems related to inability to breastfeed and the potential harm to the baby if boundaries aren't respected are all valid. However, I don't believe that these are valid reasons to oppose adoptive breast feeding. The above issues do not necessarily apply in all cases of adoptive breastfeeding and even if they do it should be the choice of the mother, adoptive or biological, how to handle it. As long as the baby is not harmed by being nursed by his adoptive mother, which I've seen no evidence is the case, I see no reason not to do it, especially considering the many benefits to both mother and baby to breastfeed. Clearly some adults prefers to have been breastfed only by their bio mothers but many feel differently and since there is no way of knowing how your baby will feel in the future that's not really something that can be considered.
We do know that breastmilk is better for babies than formula and we also know that both baby and mother benefits from the skin-to-skin contact and the actual act of nursing. Oxytocin is released when nursing which according to reports helps a mother be more maternal, for lack of a better word, and it has a calming effect on the baby. Bio moms have a nine months bond with their baby which adoptive mothers don't have so I believe that breastfeeding is even more important for adopted babies from an emotional and psychological standpoint. The fact that it helps the mother bond to her baby when she nurses also benefits the baby.

I don't understand the argument that it's bad if an adoptive mother wants to breastfeed partly for her own sake. Many mothers enjoy the experience of pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding and I don't think there is anything wrong with adoptive mothers wanting part of that experience too. That's not using the baby any more than bio parents are using their babies to get an experience they want. Having a wanted baby in general is basically a selfish endeavor. Breastfeeding is mutually beneficial and there is nothing wrong with wanting to benefit yourself while also doing what's best for your baby, adopted or not. Of course forcing yourself on a baby or doing something else that would somehow be negative for the baby just to please yourself is not okay but that's the case for all mothers.

Adoptive breastfeeding, as we can see from Tiff's example, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with infertility but in some cases it definitely does. When you very much want children but for some reason can't it's devastating and a huge loss. You know you will never have the experience of feeling your baby kicking, feeling the "oneness" with your baby and all the other experiences involved in having a baby. That alone is a huge blow and quite painful. There is often little infertile women can do to get that experience so being able to breastfeed your adopted baby gives these women the opportunity to get part of that experience and it becomes very important. They get a chance to experience some of the joy they've been robbed of while their babies also benefit. But, like I said earlier, it's never okay for anyone to breastfeed any baby or toddler if it in any way harms the child.

The only time, imo, that it's not okay across the board to breastfeed an adopted child is if the AP's have agreed before hand not to do it. It's of course not okay to tell a birthmother that you will not breastfeed just to get the baby when you have no intention to keep that promise just like it's not okay to make any other promise you don't plan to keep. If a birthmom lets it be known that she doesn't want the adoptive mother to breastfeed the adoptive parents should either agree to it and stick to it or not go through with the adoption. The birthmother has gone through a great deal of pain for you to have the baby and as such you at least owe her respect to keep any promises to her. However, I don't believe that an adoptive mother has to have permission from the birthmother to breastfeed.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:24 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,865,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I am a person who thinks that birth mothers are coddled entirely too much.

When I opened up the phone book to find a home study agency in my new state, and I was really shocked by the many advertisements directed at birth mothers.

Ads promising selection of "your child's parents". "Open and semi-open" adoptions. Financial help with housing and transportation. Medical expenses paid.

It's sickening to me.
I totally agree. It is sickening to me too. That is because it is done purely to entice the women to relinquish her child and believe it is a win/win/win situation. I much prefer those agencies/organisations that make sure the woman knows what is what.

Quote:
I don't think that we should return to the days of homes for unwed mothers, but I also do not think that girls who become pregnant should be accommodated by special school programs.
There is one school in Detroit that seems quite good - I will find the link. It seems to teach responsibility to the young ladies.

Quote:

An unplanned pregnancy while a teenager in high school, which let's face it, is still the typical situation, is not akin to getting on the honor roll, becoming head cheerleader, or president of the Law Club.
It's a mistake. A bad one that will alter the young woman's life for ever.

The boy or who her pregnant? Not as much. I did not make these rules. The facts of life are that woman get pregnant and men do not.
I am sure that you have raised your son to be just as responsible as your daughter when it comes to sex.

Quote:
getting on the honor roll, becoming head cheerleader, or president of the Law Club.
It is often girls who feel they have no future at all in general let alone the chance to be any of the above who are the ones most likely to get pregnant because they feel the only future they have is as a mother. Those who get pregnant are often more likely to already be in poverty. Thus one of the best preventions is to help girls believe they have a future so that they don't feel that they only have one option in life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Let's stop the insanity!
I'm always one for stopping the insanity

Last edited by susankate; 03-27-2013 at 06:19 PM..
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:37 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,865,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
This would tell me she wasn't really good with her adoption plan and I would reconsider that adoption.

Even with open adoptions, the birth mother has no business telling the adoptive family what to do or how to do it.
With demand being far higher than supply, I am sure that an emom will be able to find someone who will promise to abide by her wishes. Whether they actually do so after the adoption is of course entirely up to the AP.

If I were a bmom and someone promised not to breastfeed and then did, I would think that if they were dishonest in this thing, would they be dishonest in other things. I would much rather the prospective adoptive parent made it clear that they wished to breastfeed - I (hypothetical bmom) might well come around and think "hey, she has a point". So to me, it would the dishonesty of promising one thing to make sure one got the child and then going back on the promise that would get me - not the actual breastfeeding per se.

If one is in an open adoption and the bmom has said "well it's up to you but I would feel uncomfortable actually seeing you do it", I do think it would be disrespectful to breastfeed in front of her.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:44 PM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,865,618 times
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Re adoptive breastfeeding - my views have changed over the years and thus it shows we can learn from each other

I suspect also my image of adoptive breastfeeding was the contraption that Sheena was talking about in a long ago post where it consisted of a fake nipple, pump and bottle milk and I admit that I think that is a bit bizarre and pointless - so I probably would have thought my amom weird if she tried that lol. Many adoptees may have certain feelings about their own APs breastfeeding and that is their right - it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the adoptee. Many BPs may have certain feelings about the APs breastfeeding and that is their right - it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the birthmom.

However, things have evolved through the years. Many APs on here have talked about their own experiences and I couldn't care less what they do, if they and their children are happy about it and it is safe (eg drugs used), then fair enough. I assume that if one has an inadequate supply, one supplements it with bottle milk, would I be right? That is sometimes something I have concern with when one is going "breast only" and they aren't providing enough milk (obviously a problem for bio as well).

Last edited by susankate; 03-27-2013 at 07:15 PM..
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:45 PM
Status: "LILY DALE!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,294,081 times
Reputation: 48877
There is nothing wrong with a mother - by adoption or birth - doing something because it gives them pleasure. That can be a reason.

"Mothering" and "martyrdom" are not synonyms.

I enjoyed being pregnant, and I was saddened that I could not repeat pregnancy, as an experience separate and distinct from having another child.

I also enjoyed breast feeding. So did my baby. Mother's who have fewer issues with breast feeding - modesty, feelings of disgust etc., seem to have an easier time of nursing, than do nervous, up tight, apprehensive women.

I'm sure that also includes moms by adoption who choose to breast feed.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:48 PM
Status: "LILY DALE!" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,678 posts, read 23,294,081 times
Reputation: 48877
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
LOL, you can't force a baby to breastfeed. Trust me. This whole crossing boundaries thing is absurd. Babies are biologically programmed to nurse... they don't feel violated when offered the breast. It's not sexual.
I know! To attach a sexual agenda to breast feeding is offensive! The baby is not being raped, he is being FED. By his mother!

Shheeesh!

The reflex that this poster refers to here is called "the rooting reflex". When something soft caresses a nursing baby's cheek, she will turn her head and latch on to that and begin to suckle. My son did that to my brother's shoulder - who just passed the baby to me and said "he's hungry" - we laughed. Nothing disgusting, or sexual about it.
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