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Old 03-28-2013, 12:53 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,764 times
Reputation: 747

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
I didn't say that.

I never said that it did/or was.

Obviously. I do not disagree.

Tiff, with all due respect you are inferring things I never said. I would be happy to answer many of these questions for you from the POV of one adoptee -- but not if you are coming from the position that I am being unreasonable or that the feelings of adoptees should be minimized if they are not equally felt by their adoptive parents.

No. & I never even implied I felt the majority of adoptive parents are doing such a thing. I went to great lengths to say the people who force are the exception. I went out of my way to talk about adoptees who request breast-feeding & scenarios where adoptive breastfeeding is necessary, or IMO appropriate/understandable/wonderful.

Why you are jumping to the assumption that I am NOT treating these as individual matters, or respecting this issue I do not know?
Then what have the vast majority of your posts in this thread been about?

I never, not once, said adoptees feelings should be marginalized. You say I'm inferring things you never said, then you do the same to me. Again, I have consistently respected the feelings of adoptees on this board. You really think I'm advocating marginalizing them? I'm absolutely not. But no adoptee here was breastfed by their mother and is upset about it. We don't even have a news article or blog. Does it happen? Maybe. But I'm not marginilizing anyone's feelings anyway nor would it be possible to do so when no one here has expressed those feelings.

Every AP has said forcefully breastfeeding a child is wrong. Where has anyone argued with you on that? No one. There have been no actual examples of APs forcefully breastfeeding their children. Does it happen? Maybe. I'm not totally naive as to how crazy people can be. But why keep talking about it when no one has argued that it's not wrong and we have no examples to actually discuss?

I'd be interested in what you meant then by being glad your AP didn't "use me in such a way" in direct response to what Linmora said.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:59 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,764 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioChic View Post
I thought the main reason of breastfeeding was because your breastmilk is specially designed for your infant. The main reason I chose and stuck with breastfeeding was because my daughter was pre mature and the doctors said my body made the milk exactly as she needed it.

How would your body know what kind of milk the infant needed? Other than that it sounds like a great bonding experiance.
Your breastmilk is definitely ideal for your baby because it does change as babies grow. However, breastmilk has many beneficial properties that apply no matter what. In an ideal world, every baby would be nursed by their biological mother. In a less than ideal world, there is donor breastmilk, adoptive breastfeeding, milk sharing, formula... lots of other options.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:09 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 988,013 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
Then what have the vast majority of your posts in this thread been about?
Am I required to make sure the majority of my posts reflect a certain viewpoint or are expressed in a way in which APs find desirable?

Quote:
I never, not once, said adoptees feelings should be marginalized. You say I'm inferring things you never said, then you do the same to me. Again, I have consistently respected the feelings of adoptees on this board. You really think I'm advocating marginalizing them? I'm absolutely not.
Personally I feel you have gone to GREAT lengths to respect the feelings of adoptees. However, in this particular conversation I feel many people have inferred quite a bit that I have never stated or even implied.

Quote:
But no adoptee here was breastfed by their mother and is upset about it.
You're right. Like many of the aparents here, I have merely mentioned the adoptees I have met & personally spoke to about this topic. Remembering/respecting their POV on the matter.

Quote:
Every AP has said forcefully breastfeeding a child is wrong. Where has anyone argued with you on that? No one.
I never said anyone here argued with me on this topic. I was merely bringing it up to discuss it & refusing to act as though lines can never be crossed with children who are adopted & breastfed.

Quote:
There have been no actual examples of APs forcefully breastfeeding their children. Does it happen? Maybe. I'm not totally naive as to how crazy people can be. But why keep talking about it when no one has argued that it's not wrong and we have no examples to actually discuss?
Because people kept asking me to elaborate. No other reason.

Quote:
I'd be interested in what you meant then by being glad your AP didn't "use me in such a way" in direct response to what Linmora said.
At this point, honestly, I no longer feel safe to answer you personally. Hope you understand.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 03-28-2013 at 01:48 PM..
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:32 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,764 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
Am I required to make sure the majority of my posts reflect a certain viewpoint or are expressed in a way in which APs find desirable?

Personally I feel you have gone to GREAT lengths to respect the feelings of adoptees. However, in this particular conversation I feel many people have inferred quite a bit that I have never stated or even implied.

You're right. Like many of the aparents here, I have merely mentioned the adoptees I have met & personally spoke to about this topic. Remembering/respecting their POV on the matter.

I never said anyone here argued with me on this topic. I was merely bringing it up to discuss it & refusing to act as though lines can never be crossed with children who are adopted & breastfed.

Because people kept asking me to elaborate. No other reason.

At this point, honestly, I no longer feel safe to answer you personally. Hope you understand.
I guess I have no idea what you mean by "safe." You certainly don't have to post anything you don't want to, but then you must understand that I will simply stand by my interpretation of it. I cannot understand what else you could have meant. There is always DM if you want to be private.

You don't have to make any statements that APs find desirable. Again, where did I ever say that? I have no idea where you are getting that from... I am asking what the majority if your posts on this topic are if not about the possibility of APs forcing breastfeeding. I never said anything about being required to phrase things a certain way.

I don't really think its fair to take a very isolated idea (adoptive mothers sometimes force their babies to breastfeed against their will), have absolutely no supporting evidence. and make many arguments for it to be a plausible reality, then expect people to not call you out and ask for proof and say you are stretching reality a bit. Could this happen? Yes. Would it be wrong if it did? Everyone says yes. I have never read or heard of it, and you are unable to point me anywhere. I'm simply to accept your word that it is so. That's not about making APs "comfortable." That's about discussing facts, not one person's "friend of a friend" stories and taking them as indisputable fact. THIS is what I have a problem with.

Last edited by tiffjoy; 03-28-2013 at 02:41 PM..
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:57 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 988,013 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
You don't have to make any statements that APs find desirable. Again, where did I ever say that? I have no idea where you are getting that from... I am asking what the majority if your posts on this topic are if not about the possibility of APs forcing breastfeeding. I never said anything about being required to phrase things a certain way.
If people read this thread from the beginning they will see the majority of my posts were not about adoptive parents forcing breast-feeding. That was one aspect I brought up, which I continued to elaborate on only because posters asked me to clarify.

Quote:
I don't really think its fair to take a very isolated idea (adoptive mothers sometimes force their babies to breastfeed against their will)
From the very beginning I made it VERY clear this was the exception, as opposed to the rule. It is dishonest at best to say I personally tried to say otherwise.

Quote:
Could this happen? Yes. Would it be wrong if it did? Everyone says yes. I have never read or heard of it, and you are unable to point me anywhere. I'm simply to accept your word that it is so. That's not about making APs "comfortable." That's about discussing facts, not one person's "friend of a friend" stories and taking them as indisputable fact. THIS is what I have a problem with.
I cannot give you the links to the posts you want to see because I did not save them over the years I have come across them. I have admitted several times they are the exception, NOT the rule. That does NOT mean I am making them up or they do not exist. Of course you are free to believe I am lying.

I don't expect you to take my word for it anymore than the APs here who claim to know how most adoptees feel about certain issues. I will DM you anyways about how I personally feel if you like.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 03-28-2013 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:22 PM
 
297 posts, read 419,635 times
Reputation: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
Ok. I think I've made it pretty clear during my time posting here that I'm incredibly sensitive to the unique feelings experienced by adoptees.

With that being said, I don't think you can unequivocally say that a mom telling their adopted child that they enjoyed the experience of breastfeeding him or her and felt that it was a fulfilling experience will trigger negative feelings in the adoptee. And if it does, does that make the adoptive mom bad for her feelings? How exactly is it unreasonable or bad for an adoptive mom to want to breastfeed her child? Biological moms share that same exact feeling, and that's ok. But it's not ok for an adoptive mom? Why? And how is she then supposed to squash those feelings, especially if breastfeeding is successful? Or, should she not even attempt to breastfeed her adopted child (an incredibly healthy thing to do) because there's a possible chance her child may be upset in the future?

You have experienced life as an adoptee, and understandably view interactions with your parents in that way. But my parents (biological) have said things that have hurt me as well. This makes them neither good not bad, just human, and sometimes I'm the one who has to realize my reactions are not reasonable. My parents had me because they wanted a child. I fulfilled something for them, completed them, made them feel whole. My mom had multiple miscarriages before me. Should I feel that I simply was used by my mom to feel better about her losses? I know I helped her heal, the same way my daughter did after my miscarriage loss. Does that make us selfish for finding healing in our children?

I'm not trying to minimize the way adoptees feel. Like I said, I think I've proven that I'm very sympathetic, and I truly feel much of what you said can be true. Sometimes, APs use their children to feel better but that's where it ends. I do think many times, though, APs find comfort in their children (same as bio parents) and give back as much or more love than they receive (again, same as bio parents).

You say you are grateful your mom didn't "use me in that way." Is that really what you think the majority of us are doing? Using our children? And if so, why is it only APs? I absolutely did not use my adopted daughter just because I wanted and enjoyed and treasured the experience of nursing her anymore than I used my biological daughter.

I'm sorry, but a lot of what has been said on this thread has bothered me because it is blatantly full of assumptions and blanket statements made with a later qualifier of "well, I said some." Almost none if it has been backed up by any stories of any APs actually saying it feeling any if the things said. I am constantly saying here that adoptees should be treated with respect and as individuals, but it seems that especially on this thread, it's not being said the same way towards APs. Again, I'm sorry. I respect so many of the posters here, but this thread has really gotten to me with some of the things said.
Tiff, I do think you have been/are very sympathetic to adoptees' feelings, yet there are some things I think you can't understand unless you are an adoptee and this may be one of them. I am sure not ALL adoptees feel like threefold, but I know there are many that do.
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:35 PM
 
16,669 posts, read 14,103,872 times
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I wonder if this is really an adoption issue.

Some parents use their children to show how "badass" they are, think along the lines of that very tiny fraction of breastfeeding moms who are what I would term "militant" (so subjective but I can't think of another word) or those dads who push their kids to be "extreme" at something just so they can look "cool" compared to other dads. BTW, the only militant bf mom I met was one who called my bestfriend a wimp and worse for not continuing to breastfeed her daughter when she self weaned at just past 3. Breastfeed for as long as you AND your child like, but it doesn't make you an ubermom.

I think any child would not enjoy being a pawn in the "are you mom (or dad) enough?" scenario. I do not think that is limited to adoptees at all.

But threefold, do you think that attitude is more prevalent in the adoption community? I only know two adopted families well enough to know if that dynamic was at play, maybe you have a large sample to draw from?
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:41 PM
 
509 posts, read 484,764 times
Reputation: 747
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
Tiff, I do think you have been/are very sympathetic to adoptees' feelings, yet there are some things I think you can't understand unless you are an adoptee and this may be one of them. I am sure not ALL adoptees feel like threefold, but I know there are many that do.
Yes. I cannot speak for adoptees as I'm not one. I never said I could. Again, I'm really unclear where the idea that I'm saying I don't want to listen to adoptees opinions or want only the good stuff to be said is coming from. From all my posts on here, it should be very clear I don't believe that.

But I don't believe threefold is an adoptive mother (I might be wrong? I'm pretty sure we have an adoptee who is also an AP here?) yet she is apparently able to speak for APs feelings and motivations in this. She's not alone, either, as others in this thread have also voiced their own assumptions of how APs feel about breastfeeding and what their motivations are.

I am consistently agreeing here that we as APs need to listen to adoptees because only they know what it feels like. Why not the reverse?

And yes, I am well aware that it wasnt ONLY negative opinions that were shared. But if APs are not able to understand or speak for adoptees, then why is the reverse acceptable?

I personally feel that at this point, this thread has gotten way out of hand and off topic and I'm going to remove myself from it. I nursed my adopted daughter, so perhaps that is why I'm bothered by the adoptees here assigning motivations to APs who breastfeed. What my daughter feels about it someday is up to her, yes, but she also will not be able to assign motivations to me.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:09 PM
 
297 posts, read 419,635 times
Reputation: 377
I have seen some articles that speak to the motivations of APs that breastfeed and they were mainly targeted to infertile women. They said that infertile women wanted so badly to have their body function as a "mother" and it was a big part of wanting to breastfeed. Tiff, I have not read every post on here, but I think that people were trying to explain how they see it from their point of view and I don't really see it as assigning motivations.

It's different for adoptees because there are 2 sets of parents involved, each with different "roles" in the child's life. For better or worse, the 2 sets remain separate within the adoptees's brain and emotions. I think that adoptees see breastfeeding as something that would be preserved for the natural mother and a breastfeeding adoptive mother would be seen as trying to take the place of the natural mother. It may not be logical thinking for a non-adopted person, but very logical for an adoptee. I am not saying that all adoptees feel this way, but a lot do.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:56 AM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,989,132 times
Reputation: 2365
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
I am sure not ALL adoptees feel like threefold, but I know there are many that do.
I doubt this is accurate. What about adoptees who don't know they were breastfed and never think to ask. Why would it matter? Really, why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I wonder if this is really an adoption issue.
Ummm, yes it is. it is specifically titled "Adoptive Breastfeeding."

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
I personally feel that at this point, this thread has gotten way out of hand and off topic and I'm going to remove myself from it. I nursed my adopted daughter, so perhaps that is why I'm bothered by the adoptees here assigning motivations to APs who breastfeed. What my daughter feels about it someday is up to her, yes, but she also will not be able to assign motivations to me.
If you wish, but you don't have to. The points you're making speak to your experiences and are valid. I think they help balance the views here. But it's your choice to remove yourself from the discussion.

Personally, I feel that adoptive breastfeeding is a personal decision for the adoptive mother. It is a natural bodily function that occurs for women - with or without a pregnancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
It's different for adoptees because there are 2 sets of parents involved, each with different "roles" in the child's life. For better or worse, the 2 sets remain separate within the adoptees's brain and emotions. I think that adoptees see breastfeeding as something that would be preserved for the natural mother and a breastfeeding adoptive mother would be seen as trying to take the place of the natural mother. It may not be logical thinking for a non-adopted person, but very logical for an adoptee. I am not saying that all adoptees feel this way, but a lot do.
Adoptees do not feel breastfeeding as something preserved for the natural mother. You might feel this way, and this is your right. But any adoptee who see's their adoptive mother as trying to "take the place of their natural mother" is one I would say has issues with his/her adoption overall. The breastfeeding would be the least of this individual's issues.
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