U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting > Adoption
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-09-2013, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
26,637 posts, read 63,174,272 times
Reputation: 30866

Advertisements

Kids do get stuck in the system because potential parents are discouraged by the onerous process. There may be a shortage of healthy white infants, but not of other kids. At least there did not used to be such a shortage.

in the mid 1990s, my wife an I considered adopting an older child, a black child or a child with health issues because there were many many of them looking for homes with little hope of finding a family. We decided we were not up to handling a crack baby or a downs syndrome baby, but there were plenty of other type of "undesireables" we were well suited and willing to raise. However after seeing what friends went through trying to adopt, and how they were treated like criminals, and learning that the process takes years and years, we decided to just have more biological children of our own. That is cheaper and more fun anyway. I doubt we were the only potential parents of "undesireable" kids who were discouraged by the daunting and ridiculous process. It is like this, you are on the edge of making this commitment. You know it is right and much needed. You know you can provide a great home for them. Still you are not entirely certain. You are right on the edge. Finally you decide "I am going to do this!" Then you realize you have no idea how to do it. They do not have ads in the yellow pages. You talk to friends who are in the process of adopting and your learn it takes years and costs thousands (tens of thousands). You learn you will be treated like you are a criminal. You will have to schedule around appointments and have the worker fail to show up and then have to reschedule. You will have to dig out personal information that you did not keep. If you have a full time job you may have to hire an investigator or an adoption specialist to come up with the required information and documents about you. Suddenly, this does not seem like such a good idea. Maybe it is just not worth it. There are other ways to help children in need. there are other ways to have more children in your family. Probably just best to leave it ot couples who cannot have children (who of course only want healthy white infants).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-09-2013, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
26,637 posts, read 63,174,272 times
Reputation: 30866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Babies up for private adoption are not stuck in the system unless the mother already had a CPS file and chose private adoption prior to the birth.

The ICWA was put in place for a very good reason and is a federal law - every single adoption agency, lawyer, faciliator, broker knows about the ICWA and that they must get tribal approval. It's been around since the late 70's I believe.

You also state they gave up - so of course they are out the tens of thousands of dollars...
They did not know or at least did not disclose the tribal bloodlines. I think they did not know about it. Until the adoption was closing and the couple had already bought tickets to return to Alaska and pick up Jr. They got shut down about three days before the adoption was to be completed. They fought it for a while, hired a lawyer and learned they would likely lose. They gave up on that adoption and eventually on the whole idea of adopting. they made another attempt, ut as soon as they started hitting the same BS roadblocks, they decided it was just onto going to happen.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 05:06 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 989,226 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
First of all most adoptive parents are not checked up on post-finalization. Second of all their status automatically makes it less likely that abuse will be reported.

So therefore more kids should stay in foster care where this does not apply?
No.
Quote:
IF they are not checking up post adoption, then they need to stop spending money on ridiculous ways to chase PAPs away and spend the moeny on follow ups.
Honestly? I am not aware of any states that check up on adoptee's post-finalization. I may be wrong but would like to see facts as opposed to assumptions.

Quote:
Household Composition and Risk of Fatal Child Maltreatment

I cannot get the link to work, but does it say more than 2 % of adopted kids end up being mistreated? I see you stating that adopted kids have a higher likelihood of being mistreated, but not what the percentage is.
I'm not sure why you can't get the link to work, because it works for me. Are you aware of how many kids are abused by their biological parents? Much more than 2%. If adopted kids are at more risk than those raised by their biological parents, then obviously it will be more than 2%. Where were you getting the statistics from your original post, anyway?

Quote:
Further, although there are more applicants for white healthy infants, than there are infants we still have infants sitting around by the thousands waiting endlessly for the adoption process. Why? because the system does not work. It is too slow and too restrictive. That is why so many PAPs go through private adoption instead.
This is ABSOLUTELY untrue that there are thousands of infants waiting to be adopted. Please provide resources to back up such claims or stop making them.

Quote:
So your personal beliefs and preferences should govern who can and cannot adopt?
No. My personal beliefs are based on my education & what studies show is best for children who have been previously abused & children who have been adopted. It is also based on my experience of actually being adopted & working for years with with children with troubled pasts who are also in care/adopted.

What are your beliefs based on besides a few friends who were denied to adopt & the feeling that was wrong?

Quote:
If they know a child was abused they are not going to spank or threaten spanking unless it appears the only option.
Spanking is NEVER the only disciplinary option. Parents who do not understand this should not be approved to adopt (especially children who have abuse histories).

Quote:
The "we never spank" parents I know overwhelmingly have unruly undisciplined children who are out of control their whole lives.
You see what you want to see. How many unruly children have been regularly spanked?

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 04-09-2013 at 05:26 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 05:23 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 989,226 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
They gave up on that adoption and eventually on the whole idea of adopting. they made another attempt, ut as soon as they started hitting the same BS roadblocks, they decided it was just onto going to happen.
They are not BS roadblocks. Just because you & your friends do not personally understand the importance of such laws/precautions does not mean they are not in the best interests of the children/their families/communities/culture.

Were your friends open to adopt older children who were available for adoption, or children who may have had special needs? Doubtful. That or there was some other serious reason they were not approved to adopt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 05:32 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 989,226 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
We decided we were not up to handling a crack baby or a downs syndrome baby, but there were plenty of other type of "undesireables" we were well suited and willing to raise.
Moderator Cut. People who would describe children available for adoption in such a way are NOT what is needed & should NOT be approved to adopt IMO. All adoptees deserve better than a roof over their head & parents who feel they are entitled to an "undesirable child" because they have financial stability & the desire to be a parent.

Moderator Cut.

Last edited by Jaded; 04-09-2013 at 05:55 PM.. Reason: Please refrain from making flaming remarks. The term "undesireables" was not directed towards you personally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 05:47 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,991,557 times
Reputation: 2365
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
When we went through foster parent training we were told less than 15% of participants finish the course. And it was not the agency who culled them out. It was the prospective foster parents themselves who determined fostering was not for them. some realities are too much for some folks. We finished the course but before the end determined fostering an older troubled child would not work for us.
Same experience we had. Actually, when we first went to an information-session only, the social workers (SW) were so honest, painfully honest, and I suspect they were so to "weed out" PAPs that had on rose-colored glasses, that I told my DH after the session that maybe it wasn't right for us. I remember saying to him "I can't believe they were so negative." But you know what, they (SW) have to be. They have to weed out those who will not be up for the challenge and will not be able to handle the realities of adopting from foster care. So DH and I took our time before filling out the application. We really searched our souls. I'm glad we did, I'm glad we eventually started the process. There were plenty of people who didn't though. I suspect the information session served its purpose to initially weed out folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Has anybody ever heard of a couple who was turned down for adoption during the homestudy process?
We were told of couples who didn't make it past the application process as well as failed their homestudy process. Sometimes it's things like home safety features. For example, we had three months to get our home ready for approval; we had a couple tell us during our training classes that they did not pass their home study because their crib was not up to code. I never followed up with them, but I suppose they had to replace the crib and reschedule to ultimately be approved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
I think PAPs should be required to have just as much education as foster parents -- like Three Wolves I think it should take place prior to approval for adoption to weed out people who have unreasonable expectations or are under the impression that adopting will be no different from raising children they gave birth to.

Education should be adoptee-centered & include discussions on adoption loss, when parents should initiate conversations about adoption, how children might process adoption differently at each developmental stage, potential challenges the child may have both while growing up & in adulthood (access to OBCs for example). It should also include discussions about the importance of contact/information for adoptees & how to address those things if it is not available to them.

PAPs who are open to adopting older children, children with special needs, &/or children who are a different race should be required to take additional classes that cover those specific issues.
I guess each state is different but all of these things were covered in our classes and we must do continuing education to maintain our license. We even had two adult adoptees speak to us about their experiences. The county also offers sessions that consist of a panel of adoptees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Perhaps threefold's list could be something that could be touched upon in a mandatory class for adoptive parents along with other topics. I do think that education is key. We weren't required to take any sort of classes and now looking back at things almost 10 years later, I wish that we had. Even though I had done some research, it wasn't enough. Heck, I would even like to take some fostering classes at this point just to have more knowledge at my fingertips when dealing with my daughter. I'm sure that anything would be helpful.
Yup. They are.

As far as taking some fostering classes, you might want to contact your county's foster care office to see if they allow parents to sit in on some of their sessions without filling out an application. See if they offer ongoing education for current foster families and if they are open to the public. Many are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
None of what I listed depends on when or where the child was adopted (with the exception of if applicable).

Laws have not changed since I was adopted & criteria for adopting in my state (or to my knowledge any others) has not changed, either. Why you assume otherwise I have no idea, but that is incorrect. I was not adopted during the BSE & clinging to the belief that "adoption is different now" couldn't be farther from the truth.

What I posted was what is in the best interests of ALL adoptees (no matter when they were adopted, what age they were adopted, or where they were adopted from). No one expects people to be perfect parents, but all of the issues discussed on this thread so far are applicable & relevant today.
When and where relates to whether the child is adopted from foster care, private adoption agency, or international adoption. How old was the child at adoption and under what circumstances was he/she placed in foster care? Older children whose parents die and have no other family to care for them become wards of the state, this is very different from a child who was taken from an abusive home. The when definitely matters because laws have changed, times have changed. There was a thread entitled "Adoption History" that lists a link to changes to adoption laws over the years. Two major changes I can think of is the discontinuance of Orphanages and Orphan Trains.

Not only has adoption changed but the laws governing it have changed. One recent one is the Adoption and Safe Families Act. If you are saying that no laws have changed since you were adopted, then are you saying you are no older than 16-17 years old? This law was passed in 1997.

Also, here is a timeline of adoption laws/history.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 06:02 PM
 
1,014 posts, read 989,226 times
Reputation: 834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
When and where relates to whether the child is adopted from foster care, private adoption agency, or international adoption. How old was the child at adoption and under what circumstances was he/she placed in foster care?
Absolutely nothing I listed would NOT apply for any children/babies available for adoption today.

Quote:
Older children whose parents die and have no other family to care for them become wards of the state, this is very different from a child who was taken from an abusive home.
Quote:
The when definitely matters because laws have changed, times have changed. There was a thread entitled "Adoption History" that lists a link to changes to adoption laws over the years. Two major changes I can think of is the discontinuance of Orphanages and Orphan Trains.
LOL. How old do you think I am, Jaded? NO criteria for adoption or adoption laws that impacted adopting people like me here (or the majority of other states) have changed since I was adopted. Mostly states who have re-instated adult-adoptee rights have changed.

Quote:
If you are saying that no laws have changed since you were adopted, then are you saying you are no older than 16-17 years old? This law was passed in 1997.
The ASFA did not apply to me. In reality THAT is actually what is not relevant here.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 04-09-2013 at 06:53 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Chicago area
1,105 posts, read 2,922,658 times
Reputation: 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I think precisely because intangible qualities are so hard to measure that the system ought to focus on things that are objective and are tangible. For example:

1. Not so much income, but stability of employment.
2. Absence of a criminal record.
3. Absence of proof of a drug or alcohol problem.
4. Duration of marriage and absence of evidence showing separations during the marriage and heaven forbid, domestic violence.
5. Credit scores (not so much to show wealth), but to show constancy and integrity when it comes to paying bills.
6. School records including grades.
7. Medical records to establish that adoptive parents are actually in reasonably good health.
8. Mental health records if any. Seeking counseling certainly shouldn't disqualify adoptive parents, but evidence of severe mental health disturbances clearly should disqualify them.

I would recommend two interviews given to two separate adoption counselors. Writing samples should be submitted as well. Questions asked in person and in writing should be open-ended, rather than calling for short and simple answers.

References should be given and always consulted.

Qualities like compassion, adaptability, and decision making processes should be considered. However, all these qualities are very subjective. Adoption workers, like all people have their prejudices and biases. This is why the process should be as objective as possible.
Is the above really what is needed to be a good parent? To me personal qualities are much more important. The best foster family I was with would probably not have been allowed to adopt if the requirements were the above ones. They weren't educated. The dad had been convicted of throwing a punch in a bar fight in his early 20's. The mom was quite overweight and had associated health problems. I don't know how their finances and credit scores was but due to failure of the dad's previous business a few years before I got there it probably wasn't the greatest. They weren't the tidiest people either. But they were great parents to their own three kids and great foster parents to three foster kids. They were just wonderful people and I loved living there. It was my first experience of living in a normal, happy family. They had a little boy living there who at times would get very angry and throw major tantrums but they handled him very well. I had a host of behavioral problems myself but did great when I was there and the minor trouble I did get into was dealt with proportionally without anger and hostility. They were warm, loving, happy people. The perfect people for raising kids with psychosocial problems.

Another foster family I lived with would most likely have met all the above criteria. They were both social workers with master degrees, had been married for a long time, had a nice home, squeaky clean lifestyle, were healthy and reasonably nice. They would probably be considered the perfect adoptive parents but while they had their resources down they were lacking in the interpersonal skill department, at least with kids. The dad sat me down a few days after I got there and wanted me to open up and talk to him about my problems. I didn't know this guy and didn't want to sit there and open up to him but he pushed the issue. Eventually, cocky teenager as I was, I told him that my only problem in life was him being annoying whereby he got really mad. After that he kept pushing me to talk and confide in him every now and then. It wasn't helpful. It just made me feel very uncomfortable. Pushing and prodding and putting someone on the spot is not how you get a teenager to open up. The whole thing was really foolish on his part.
These parents were also quite stiff and although they never mistreated me I felt very uncomfortable there. They didn't talk to me much and I didn't talk to them. I spent most of my time there out running around because I didn't want to be there.
This couple would have met all the requirements to adopt but in my opinion left much to be desired as parents.

The requirements listed above really has nothing to do with how one is going to be as a parent. As the examples above illustrates people who do meet the requirements can still be very poor candidates to be parents, especially if the kid has some kind of special needs which many adopted kids do. On the other hand people who don't meet these requirements can be wonderful parents. Grades, credit rating and education doesn't have anything to do with ability to parent. Neither does background, necessarily.

I also had a mentor when I was in my teens who was also a wonderful woman. However, she had a very rough background. She had been a heroin addict and prostitute in her 20's but she had got treatment and completely turned her life around. By the time I got to know her she was in her mid 40's and a very different person than she was 15-20 years earlier. She was at that time using her own experience to help others and I'm sure that had she wanted to adopt she would have been a great parent, especially to kids with similar experiences to hers (she had also been in foster care). With so many kids in foster care needing good, permanent families why should someone like this woman be prevented from adopting if she can prove that she's a stable, caring person now? In my opinion she would have made a much better parent than the two social workers.
Basically, who someone is is more important than what they have.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Chicago area
1,105 posts, read 2,922,658 times
Reputation: 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post

I am not sure what the government does with kids with no parents or no good parents. They do not have orphanages anymore as far as I can tell.
Actually they do. They're just not called orphanages anymore. They are called group homes, children's homes, shelters or academies. Younger kids are most likely to be in foster homes but older kids, like teens, are often in various institutions - basically modern orphanages.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2013, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Chicago area
1,105 posts, read 2,922,658 times
Reputation: 2106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Kids do get stuck in the system because potential parents are discouraged by the onerous process. There may be a shortage of healthy white infants, but not of other kids. At least there did not used to be such a shortage.

in the mid 1990s, my wife an I considered adopting an older child, a black child or a child with health issues because there were many many of them looking for homes with little hope of finding a family. We decided we were not up to handling a crack baby or a downs syndrome baby, but there were plenty of other type of "undesireables" we were well suited and willing to raise. However after seeing what friends went through trying to adopt, and how they were treated like criminals, and learning that the process takes years and years, we decided to just have more biological children of our own. That is cheaper and more fun anyway. I doubt we were the only potential parents of "undesireable" kids who were discouraged by the daunting and ridiculous process. It is like this, you are on the edge of making this commitment. You know it is right and much needed. You know you can provide a great home for them. Still you are not entirely certain. You are right on the edge. Finally you decide "I am going to do this!" Then you realize you have no idea how to do it. They do not have ads in the yellow pages. You talk to friends who are in the process of adopting and your learn it takes years and costs thousands (tens of thousands). You learn you will be treated like you are a criminal. You will have to schedule around appointments and have the worker fail to show up and then have to reschedule. You will have to dig out personal information that you did not keep. If you have a full time job you may have to hire an investigator or an adoption specialist to come up with the required information and documents about you. Suddenly, this does not seem like such a good idea. Maybe it is just not worth it. There are other ways to help children in need. there are other ways to have more children in your family. Probably just best to leave it ot couples who cannot have children (who of course only want healthy white infants).

Coldjenses, although I agree with some of your points it appears that you don't know much about adoption and some of your opinions are based on inaccurate beliefs. First, there are many different types of adoption. You appear to be referring to kids in foster care (who are certainly not kept on "government farms") in the US which is quite different than private adoptions through an adoption agency or international adoptions.
The major hoops and huge costs definitely do exist in domestic infant adoptions and international adoptions but the situation is very different when it comes to adoption of foster kids through the state. It's a shame that you and your wife decided not to pursue it due to rumors you heard from others who most likely weren't even adopting from foster care. It's really not that hard to get accurate information. A google search will tell you most of what you need to know and before internet a phone call would have done the same.

Fact is that adoption from foster care does not cost tens of thousands of dollars. In fact in some situation it doesn't really cost anything since the state will reimburse you for adoption related costs. If it does cost money it's only a few thousand, mainly lawyer fees. On top of that many of the kids qualify for adoption subsidies which includes a monthly check for their care, medicaid for the kid and sometimes even money for college. Financial issues should not stand in your way of adopting from foster care.

Although a home study is required to adopt from foster care it's not as horrible as you seem to think. Yes, you will have to prove yourself, make some appointments, fill out paperwork and have people come to your home. But that's hardly unreasonable or anything that is so difficult that people feel it's near impossible to adopt. The state want their foster kids to be adopted and are taking steps to make sure that happens as much as possible by getting rid of unnecessary roadblocks and adding incentives like the adoption subsidies.
Your perception that foster kids are not getting adopted because it's so difficult and expensive is simply not true. As someone else mentioned, foster kids are not being adopted because there aren't enough people that want to adopt older kids, kids with special needs or sibling groups and most foster kids available for adoption are in one of these categories. There are not, as you believe, thousands of babies sitting around waiting to be adopted. Babies and toddlers of all colors are easily adopted and there aren't that many.

Now, when it comes to adopting a baby or toddler domestically or adopting a child internationally your perceptions are partly correct. It does cost tens of thousands of dollars, require people to jump through many hoops and takes a long time. When it comes to the domestic adoptions this certainly does not hurt the kids though. There is such a demand for American babies that plenty of people are willing to go through the expensive and difficult process. No infants are stuck in the system because of the process.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting > Adoption
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top