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Old 04-30-2013, 05:10 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 988,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
Over-diagnosing of loss in adoption is not something you can Google to find.
If it was a problem I'm sure it would be mentioned on the internet somewhere.

Quote:
Did you read the article, Is it Adoption or Is It Life?
I did. That's why I pointed out that it supported everything I was saying. Like the fact that it is normal for adoption to impact adoptees throughout the development stages, even when adopted as an infant. It did not say anything about problems with therapists over-diagnosing adoption loss. Instead it talked about the importance of APs learning how to identify adoption issues vs. non adoption issues (which certainly does not contradict anything I have said).

Children adopted as newborns via Safe Haven Laws can have more challenges as they develop than those who are in an open adoption. This is because they lose access to answers that may be extremely important for them to know. Loss of such information is real, not a figment of anyone's imagination or the result of being told it is something to be sad about.

Quote:
All of the links covered a lot of issues and specifically listed psychologists who specialize in adoption issues; psychologists you claimed didn't exist.
I never claimed that.

I said I had a hard time finding them when searching for graduate schools -- I wanted to apply to schools that had professors specializing in adoption psychology & those were fairly hard (not impossible) to find. Of course adoption specialists exist, that doesn't mean it is easy for people to find local psychologists; especially not ones who work specifically with adult adoptees.

Also it is important to note not all therapists/counselors (like in the links you provided) are psychologists. Most of the adoption counselors I have come across were not psychologists or did not specialize in adoption in graduate school.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 04-30-2013 at 06:23 AM..
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:57 AM
 
1,014 posts, read 988,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffjoy View Post
I also didn't see anything in the article cited supporting the over diagnosis of adoptee related issues. Instead, the simply said not every single issue children experience is related to adoption, which I've never read anyone here claim. I did read a lot of support for the idea that children who are adopted deal with a many issues related to adoption. Which is exactly what I have heard the adoptees here saying. So it was nice to see those statements supported.
That is everything I gathered from the article as well. & you're welcome for the recommendation. I haven't read Real Parents, Real Children, but Being Adopted by Brodzinksy is great & his work is well-respected by adoption experts worldwide.

Here is a table of issues adoptees may need to resolve during each developmental stage (infancy through late adulthood):

http://www.americanadoptioncongress....ky_article.php

Note that when the child is around the age of 6 or 8 (middle childhood) it is normal for adoptees to "Grieve loss even when happy with adoptive family." Unfortunately there are quite a few developmental tasks that could be complicated if one is adopted via a Safe Haven Law.

Last edited by thethreefoldme; 04-30-2013 at 09:34 AM..
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:38 AM
 
11,151 posts, read 14,160,998 times
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Several sources addressing the issue of loss among adopted individuals (apologies if any have been previously listed):

Lifelong Issues in Adoption - Adopting.org

Coping with birthparent loss in a... [J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

NACAC | Adoptalk Articles & Publications

Psychological Issues Faced by Adopted Children and Adults - Adoption

http://www.adoptioninternational.net...20Adoption.pdf (.pdf file)

http://testnuke.wiadopt.org/Portals/...Depression.pdf (pdf file)


Would appreciate seeing a similar list of resources on the "over-diagnosis" of adoptee issues, because I couldn't find any.

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 04-30-2013 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Irish Eyes View Post

Would appreciate seeing a similar list of resources on the "over-diagnosis" of adoptee issues, because I couldn't find any.
I couldn't either, and I spent about an hour looking last night. I have never heard of such a thing, which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, obviously, but until I see sources indicating such, I'm skeptical. As has been already pointed out, adoptees are a relatively small population, and it is challenging to find therapists who specialize in counseling adopted children and adults. It's also very challenging for first parents to find a counselor who has experience and knowledge of working with first parents. Just like with any mental health issue, it's important to seek counseling from a professional who is familiar with that particular issue.

I did find this, though, and thought it was terribly interesting, especially after I listened to the Paul Sutherland talk that was linked in another thread. There's a counselor local to my area who specializes in EDMR (Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing - a comprehensive therapeutic approach that helps patients release disturbing thoughts and emotions that originate in traumatic experiences) and has authored books about PTSD and adoption. Until the Sutherland talk, I was unfamiliar with this link, so it caught me eye.

The Children's Group Therapy Association: Newsletter

She also wrote a book on EDMR called Small Wonders. Apparently, the whole point of EDMR is to help people with pre-verbal trauma that they cannot recall experiencing or cannot verbalize. This was so fascinating for me to read! We have been talking about this here, that infants can indeed experience trauma and the inability to recall that trauma does not negate the impact it can have on later life experiences.

Blogger shares her experience with EDMR
EMDR and preverbal trauma | let unfold

What I found interesting is that as I poked around regarding EDMS, different causes of the trauma were mentioned. An infant who spent extensive periods in the NICU after birth. A young child who experienced a lot of physical pain (perhaps as a result of an illness or broken bone). A child whose mother died while they were still young. I doubt anyone would poo-poo the idea of trauma for those causes. In the same way, removal from the biological mother can cause an infant trauma. In all cases, there is no concrete memory of the event, but it still caused a trauma that reverberates through the person's life.

This is a great blog written by a social worker who counsels families with children suffering from traumatic experiences. I spent far too much time there poking around and reading.

This was for a child adopted as an infant at age 3. Not all children who experience issues with adoption were adopted as older children. Some were adopted, like my daughter, as very young infants and never experienced foster care or an orphanage.

http://www.forever-families.com/logan-a-sweet-kid-with-a-big-temper.html

(Bolding my own in all quotes)

Quote:
I will do my best to not stay on my soap box for too long, but as a fair warning . . . I’m on my soapbox! For any child who is adopted or has ever been in foster care, at any time in their life, their history needs to be addressed. To avoid it, or not discuss it, is harmful to the child. If your child’s therapist is not willing to discuss it, or minimizes it’s importance, find a new therapist.
And, loved this one:

Quote:
Parents and professionals need to understand that the age of adoption does not directly correlate to a child’s feelings or struggles about being adopted.

Once a child can grasp the understanding that they were not kept by their birth family, they will experience loss and grief. The level of grief varies for each child at each stage in life, and the probability that the child will have a hard time with it at some point in life is certain. Some children feel the pain at a very young age while others do not feel it until they look into the eyes of their own child.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
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Putting adoption aside, imagine this hypothetical scenario: Baby Annie has a mom and a dad but when she's two months old her mom dies in a car accident. A year later Annie's dad remarries and the stepmom becomes a great mother for Annie and raises her as her own. So Annie does grow up with two loving parents. But does that mean that she will never feel the loss of her mother's death just because she doesn't remember her? She may still be sad that she lost her mother and never got a chance to get to know her. Even though she has a great stepmom she may still view her mother's death as a loss to her.
Or do you guys think that's impossible since she was too young to remember when her mother died?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizita View Post
Putting adoption aside, imagine this hypothetical scenario: Baby Annie has a mom and a dad but when she's two months old her mom dies in a car accident. A year later Annie's dad remarries and the stepmom becomes a great mother for Annie and raises her as her own. So Annie does grow up with two loving parents. But does that mean that she will never feel the loss of her mother's death just because she doesn't remember her? She may still be sad that she lost her mother and never got a chance to get to know her. Even though she has a great stepmom she may still view her mother's death as a loss to her.
Or do you guys think that's impossible since she was too young to remember when her mother died?
Great comparison. I know people who have lost parents very early in life, and even with an otherwise happy childhood and good parents/stepparents, they still grieved for their loss. And I can't imagine blaming them for that or telling them they were wrong since they couldn't remember them. It also may have impacted various parts of their lives, such as their feelings when they had children.

People are allowed to feel as they feel. Point blank. If someone feels the death or abscense of a family member causes them grief or feelings of loss, then that's how they feel. It is what it is, and no one can tell another person how to feel.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:49 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,989,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizita View Post
Putting adoption aside, imagine this hypothetical scenario: Baby Annie has a mom and a dad but when she's two months old her mom dies in a car accident. A year later Annie's dad remarries and the stepmom becomes a great mother for Annie and raises her as her own. So Annie does grow up with two loving parents. But does that mean that she will never feel the loss of her mother's death just because she doesn't remember her? She may still be sad that she lost her mother and never got a chance to get to know her. Even though she has a great stepmom she may still view her mother's death as a loss to her.
Or do you guys think that's impossible since she was too young to remember when her mother died?
I think this situation is a good example of why a baby would or how a baby could grow up to feel a loss. She still has her father who has memories of his deceased wife and he may share these memories and feelings with his daughter. So, no, I don't think this is impossible. She may not remember, but she was never separated from her mother or father, and so memories and stories of who she was will likely be told to her as she grows older.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iklrl View Post
Mother wants adoption father does not what happens child support?

Mother wants to put baby up for adoption. Father does not. Father just got a job paying $15 an hour. He has 5 other children ages 2,3,4,7,9 all different mothers. He is behind on child support. Mother does not have any children was a student in college but ran out of money and currently not working on bedrest doctors orders. She has no family support. I'm a mutual friend of both the mother and father. The father wants the baby and tells her he will put her on childsupport. He told her that if she keeps the baby and puts him on childsupport she won't get much money because he is already paying support for 5 kids. This is really stressing her out. I went to visit her today and she was so nervous about him getting custody and making her pay childsupport she was shaking and crying. She says she just wants to put the baby up for adoption and move on with her life. I feel bad because I convinced her to put the baby up for adoption instead of abortion. Now the father is trying to block the adoption. I'm moving out of town next week so I won't be around to help her. What should she do? He also smokes weed.
Now back to this... we have digressed too much!

I think that if your friend has support and love from her family and friends then she'll be able to get through this situation, whatever decision she chooses to make. Good luck and keep us posted.

Last edited by Jaded; 05-01-2013 at 08:58 AM.. Reason: added clarification for getting back on topic
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:54 PM
 
Location: SLC, UT
1,571 posts, read 2,290,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iklrl View Post
No he does not have custody of any of them. He is only on childsupport for one of them and he is $2,000 behind. The other mothers have threatened to put him on child support but he always hires a lawyer to send them a letter saying he will demand joint custody where both parents pay child support. He has bragged about giving each woman $50 a month. He does have a felony from 10 years ago.
I apologize that I didn't read all the replies, and if it's already been said, but he doesn't have the right to custody just because he pays child support.

Let me be clear - this is something I checked with my family lawyer over when my baby's father threatened the same thing (well, what he said was, "If I pay child support, then at any time in the future I'd have as much right to custody as you do") - and my lawyer said that it's complete BS. Custody is determined by a family court judge who makes the decision based on what's in the child's best interest. The decision is NOT based on who pays for the child's care. If it was actually a lawyer (instead of a made-up name and/or letter) that sent that to the parents, then the lawyer is full of ***** as well. No judge, working in the child's best interest, will give joint custody of a child to a man who has never been a part of that child's life - that would be akin to making the child go live with a stranger.

First strike: Felony
Second strike: Behind on child support
Third strike: Not paying child support for the other children

Your friend picked a major loser to have a child with. It's too bad you convinced her to have the child when she wanted an abortion - since you're not going to be around, nor are you willing to raise the child, nor are you contributing financially to the child's care, you should've stayed out of it. Since you've already involved yourself, help her find a good family lawyer. There are services for low-income people. Look in the yellow pages and/or Google it.

Frankly, she should just put the child up for adoption. If the father is contacted by the adoption agency and says that he won't approve of the adoption, then he can take full custody of the child. Since he hasn't bothered to try to get custody of his myriad of other children, I doubt that he'll do it. Basically, she'd be calling his bluff. Child support is based on incomes of both parents - since she's disabled and not working, the state won't demand she pay a whole lot. Besides, as he's proven, it's very easy to fall behind by thousands of dollars on child support. And it would be silly for him to go to court over child support that he's owed, only to have the courts notice that he happens to owe thousands in child support himself. He'll get called out on it as much as she would.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:54 AM
 
10,532 posts, read 8,461,518 times
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Since many of the (valid and informative) posts in this thread do not deal with the original topic except in a tangential way, could this thread be split in two?
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