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Old 03-07-2014, 02:19 AM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,980,069 times
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Susankate I haven't taken any views of MC to heart. I like her views on PW theory, that's all.

Regarding the horoscope analogy, I don't get it.

Regarding Verrier's credentials, they are not impressive to me.

What Can a Tiny Baby Know? Who to depend on to care for him/her! It's a scientific fact that's it's instinctual, for survival, not via cellular memory.

There are too many variables that can cause an infant to be separated from the birth mother after birth and being separated from the woman who carried you and cared for by another is not a life-long traumatic event that damages one forever. There is no logic to this theory, sorry.
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Old 03-16-2014, 07:27 PM
 
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Catdancer, I'm a 47yo adoptee adopted at birth. If you had asked me at 45 if being adopted had any lasting impact on me I would have laughed in your face. Sure, I'd suffered all my life from intense alienation, chronic depression, PTSD, and hyper-vigilance; but I would have assured you that those random conditions had nothing, absolutely nothing(!) to do with my being adopted. They were just, y'know, things I'd picked up along the way. And I would have thanked you very much not to mention my adoption again.

Then I found out that many, if not most, adoptees suffer from intense alienation, chronic depression, PTSD, and hyper-vigilance. That this "random" constellation of conditions, far from being random, were normal to people who had suffered trauma as infants.

Then I took a long, hard look inside myself and realized the reason I had scoffed all my life at the idea of adoptee trauma was because I feared the pain and grief I had felt all my life would overwhelm me if I let them come to the surface.

But I am not alone. Adoptees make up 2-3% of the population and over 20% of the adolescents brought to counseling. Adoptees tested for depression routinely have been shown to carry amounts of inner pain that would make a regular person turn to drugs, but to simply consider it the "background noise" that's been there all their lives, because for us it is the background noise that's been there all our lives.

I am not alone.

And neither are you.

What can a tiny baby know? Ask the Attachment Parenting movement, who emphasize the importance of the mother's presence for the first year of life. Not a dedicated caregiver but the mother whose voice the baby heard, whose scent the baby smelled, whose rhythms the baby followed all the time it was gestating in her womb. That level of trust can't be transferred to anyone else or replicated at random. That person is part of the baby's self-identity during the first six months. And if that person isn't there during those first six months, the baby's sense of self suffers as a result.

If an infant's mother dies, it's understood that they simply don't replicate that bond with another caregiver. Oh, over time survival instincts will take hold and the child will turn to another caregiver rather than die, but it's not the same. It is understood that those children will grow into men and women who have a hole in their hearts that time does not fill.

Same with adoptees.

Not all of us will admit it, nor will all those who were orphaned at birth. Many of us have to have a mid-life crisis before we're willing to face the issue. But admit it or not, it still shows up in the psych profiles of most adoptees.

I've read Verrier. I don't agree with her on all points, but I think she has the gist of it right. But if you don't like Verrier, there's plenty of other therapists out there working with adoptees who have reached the same conclusion. Care for some Paul Sunderland?

Verrier isn't alone. I'm not alone, and you're not alone.

Bless you.

Last edited by Jaded; 03-17-2014 at 11:03 AM.. Reason: Sorry, no links for new posters.
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:27 AM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,980,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrabbyLioness View Post
Catdancer, I'm a 47yo adoptee adopted at birth. If you had asked me at 45 if being adopted had any lasting impact on me I would have laughed in your face. Sure, I'd suffered all my life from intense alienation, chronic depression, PTSD, and hyper-vigilance; but I would have assured you that those random conditions had nothing, absolutely nothing(!) to do with my being adopted. They were just, y'know, things I'd picked up along the way. And I would have thanked you very much not to mention my adoption again.

Then I found out that many, if not most, adoptees suffer from intense alienation, chronic depression, PTSD, and hyper-vigilance. That this "random" constellation of conditions, far from being random, were normal to people who had suffered trauma as infants.

Then I took a long, hard look inside myself and realized the reason I had scoffed all my life at the idea of adoptee trauma was because I feared the pain and grief I had felt all my life would overwhelm me if I let them come to the surface.

But I am not alone. Adoptees make up 2-3% of the population and over 20% of the adolescents brought to counseling. Adoptees tested for depression routinely have been shown to carry amounts of inner pain that would make a regular person turn to drugs, but to simply consider it the "background noise" that's been there all their lives, because for us it is the background noise that's been there all our lives.

I am not alone.

And neither are you.

What can a tiny baby know? Ask the Attachment Parenting movement, who emphasize the importance of the mother's presence for the first year of life. Not a dedicated caregiver but the mother whose voice the baby heard, whose scent the baby smelled, whose rhythms the baby followed all the time it was gestating in her womb. That level of trust can't be transferred to anyone else or replicated at random. That person is part of the baby's self-identity during the first six months. And if that person isn't there during those first six months, the baby's sense of self suffers as a result.

If an infant's mother dies, it's understood that they simply don't replicate that bond with another caregiver. Oh, over time survival instincts will take hold and the child will turn to another caregiver rather than die, but it's not the same. It is understood that those children will grow into men and women who have a hole in their hearts that time does not fill.

Same with adoptees.

Not all of us will admit it, nor will all those who were orphaned at birth. Many of us have to have a mid-life crisis before we're willing to face the issue. But admit it or not, it still shows up in the psych profiles of most adoptees.

I've read Verrier. I don't agree with her on all points, but I think she has the gist of it right. But if you don't like Verrier, there's plenty of other therapists out there working with adoptees who have reached the same conclusion. Care for some Paul Sunderland?

Verrier isn't alone. I'm not alone, and you're not alone.

Bless you.
There is so much incorrect and inflated information in this post that it frightens me to think that for 45 years you struggled with personal issues then at 47 you "magically" learned that it was all due to you being adopted? As an infant no doubt?

OKAY...let's just say that along with that bridge in Arizona I have for sale, is some oceanfront property!

Oh, and BTW, the reason adoptees are overrepresented in therapy has less to do with them being adopted and more to do with the fact that their parents/caregivers are much more likely to seek therapy for them than their biological counterparts. However, when you look at actual crime statistics, the FBI profile for mass murderers, the new evidence for children who are at risk of having ADHD, etc.; none will correlate with adoption. As folk are quick to point out on C-D...correlation does not equal causation.

I ask one favor: please stop spreading propaganda that promotes the false idea that adoptees will suffer a lifetime of pain and trauma that is inevitable and irreversible. It's a sad misguided scare-tactic and simply unfounded. Thanks.
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:01 PM
 
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I am 52 and was adopted at birth. I have an older sister by the same natural mother, different fathers, and we have none of the issues that have been mentioned. And my sister wasn't adopted until the age of 3! She was in the home of our natural mother until then. There were also 6 other children that my natural mother did raise. So my sister was taken out of the home that had other brother and sisters, and she is fine...now 56. We are friends with all of our siblings on facebook and have been for years.

So I disagree with the idea that all adoptees have all of these issue. Not true.
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:00 PM
 
7 posts, read 8,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
There is so much incorrect and inflated information in this post that it frightens me to think that for 45 years you struggled with personal issues then at 47 you "magically" learned that it was all due to you being adopted? As an infant no doubt?
So you're saying my life story is incorrect and inflated. That's quite an accusation. Would you care to elaborate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
Oh, and BTW, the reason adoptees are overrepresented in therapy has less to do with them being adopted and more to do with the fact that their parents/caregivers are much more likely to seek therapy for them than their biological counterparts.
Actually, I've known quite a few adult adoptees whose parents refused to let them get therapy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
However, when you look at actual crime statistics, the FBI profile for mass murderers, the new evidence for children who are at risk of having ADHD, etc.; none will correlate with adoption. As folk are quick to point out on C-D...correlation does not equal causation.
I hadn't mentioned crime statistics. Where did that come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
I ask one favor: please stop spreading propaganda that promotes the false idea that adoptees will suffer a lifetime of pain and trauma that is inevitable and irreversible. It's a sad misguided scare-tactic and simply unfounded. Thanks.
Would you please point to what exactly I said that you consider "propaganda"?
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:05 PM
 
7 posts, read 8,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
I am 52 and was adopted at birth. I have an older sister by the same natural mother, different fathers, and we have none of the issues that have been mentioned. And my sister wasn't adopted until the age of 3! She was in the home of our natural mother until then. There were also 6 other children that my natural mother did raise. So my sister was taken out of the home that had other brother and sisters, and she is fine...now 56. We are friends with all of our siblings on facebook and have been for years.

So I disagree with the idea that all adoptees have all of these issue. Not true.
I believe the initial question involved infant adoption, not the adoption of older children.
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrabbyLioness View Post
I believe the initial question involved infant adoption, not the adoption of older children.
Well, I was an infant...no problems. Seems like my sister would have had more of a problem than an infant....seeing as how she actually did live with our natural mother but then was giving up for adoption. No lasting an anxiety, anger, or separation issues at all.
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:36 PM
 
7 posts, read 8,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Well, I was an infant...no problems. Seems like my sister would have had more of a problem than an infant....seeing as how she actually did live with our natural mother but then was giving up for adoption. No lasting an anxiety, anger, or separation issues at all.
The issues that a toddler has are not the same as the issues a newborn has. We're currently talking about what research has shown are issues with newborns who are separated.

There's a different set of research concerning toddlers, but that's off-topic.
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:45 PM
 
2,946 posts, read 4,868,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrabbyLioness View Post
The issues that a toddler has are not the same as the issues a newborn has. We're currently talking about what research has shown are issues with newborns who are separated.

There's a different set of research concerning toddlers, but that's off-topic.
Did you read my post? I was adopted at BIRTH! I think that qualifies as an infant. lol
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:49 PM
 
7 posts, read 8,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Did you read my post? I was adopted at BIRTH! I think that qualifies as an infant. lol
You certainly qualify as adopted at biirth, but your sister was adopted as a toddler. You mention six other sibling, but you don't say if they were adopted at all.

I'm glad your infant adoption left you with no major psychological issues. I've known other infant adoptees who also had no major psychological issues as a result.

But I've know far more infant adoptees who do.

Last edited by Jaded; 03-17-2014 at 09:23 PM..
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