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Old 03-25-2014, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Down the rabbit hole
858 posts, read 945,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Several times I have acknowledged that some adoptees have feelings of loss and grief. I had a talk with a man in his 50's who had recently found his birth family. He told me he never felt at home with his adoptive family even though they loved him and cared for him in every way. He felt more comfortable with his biological family now. His biological family would be considered blue collar and uneducated while he was adopted into a family of doctors, lawyers and other professionals. He
struggled all through school and now he thinks he knows why. (I wouldn't necessarily make that connection).

My complaint is that some people are saying ALL ADOPTEES feel these same feelings and I know it isn't true.

And yes I would say the same things I've said here to my adult adopted children as well as my 12 year old adopted children. My younger daughters are most of the time sitting right by my side when I'm on CD and they know what is going on.

And again i have compassion for anybody in emotional pain. I've known plenty myself in my own life.



I think the person you spoke with is an exception rather than a rule. I haven't sought the experiences of other adoptees but all of the people I've known personally that were adopted, grew up in perfectly normal households........including myself. I never suffered from a sense of "longing" or "not fitting in". Could be the fellow you spoke with, "connected" with his biological family out of a genetic predisposition..........or more bluntly put - intelligence is largely hereditary, so maybe he did not indeed "fit" well with his adoptive family.

Unless I missed something, I don't think that anyone here has argued that any particular trait or feeling can be attributed to all adoptees. That would be silly. The way I take the whole PWT is that it exists in potentia. That doesn't mean that every adoptee will experience the issues ascribed to in PWT, but if they do exist, these could be the reasons..... It's not only possible that the separation of an infant from it's birth mother causes a type or trauma, it's probable. The baby doesn't "remember" in the classical sense that older children or adults do, but the mind is imprinted, subconsciously, it's stored. That's been pretty well documented by J. Bowlby and M. Ainsworth, authors of the attachment theory.......(to which PTW does not apply )

That's why I look at PWT as a tool. The subconscious can be a very powerful thing, no one knows what can trigger the release of that stored trauma, if indeed it's ever released. Many adoptees live their whole lives oblivious to their origins. Some look into the whole affair out of curiosity, some for genetic information and some may have a life experience that sets them off. There may be some that look to their origins as a place to hang blame for problems they've encountered in life but I'm betting it's a small minority. A person who looks beyond themselves for answers to life's problems and questions, has not looked well enough within.

I think I got what I came here looking for. Seems like most adoptees lend some sort credence to the Primal Wound theory and all seem to agree that it's to be taken with a grain of salt. But that's how you should take any kind of advice when reading ideas and theories; take what works for you, incorporate it into your own belief system, and leave the rest.

Conversely, the adoptive parents are much more dismissive of the whole idea and actually to an extent that surprised me. There were a few adoptive parents that I heard from who believed in the concept behind PWT. One young mother in particular struck me. Some of her observations and adjustments in regard to raising her daughter were quite remarkable.....almost as it she could see things from the adoptee's POV. As far as the dismissive/defensive faction of APs that contributed here.........I still don't understand after 8 pages of comments why PWT makes you so defensive.......it's a theory, an idea that was first published more than 70 years ago. While looking around, I came across this research from 1941 and 1943 by Florence Clothier : Adoption History: Florence Clothier, "The Psychology of the Adopted Child," 1943

which states in part: "Every adopted child, at some point in his development, has been deprived of this primitive relationship with his mother. This trauma and the severing of the individual from his racial antecedents lie at the core of what is peculiar to the psychology of the adopted child. The adopted child presents all the complications in social and emotional development seen in the own child. But the ego of the adopted child, in addition to all the normal demands made upon it, is called upon to compensate for the wound left by the loss of the biological mother. Later on this appears as an unknown void, separating the adopted child from his fellows whose blood ties bind them to the past as well as to the future".......as you can see, PWT has existed for longer than Verrier has probably been alive, it just wasn't so named. Clothier is a little harder to denounce, she graduated from both Vassar and Johns Hopkins and worked as a psychiatrist in the adoption field for several decades......but have at it if you wish.

I just had to add that before saying that it seems like this thread has run it's course. My wife asked me yesterday; "Why are you still posting in that thread? Have you learned anything new about adoption or adoptees in the last week............or are you just posting now for the sake of argument?".........and she was right.....at this point, it's for the sake of arguing the validity of a theory that can't be proven anyway. I can find plenty of arguments in the Current Events, Great Debates or Politics forums where people are geared for such things.

Thanks to all who participated in this discourse, it's been................interesting but I think it's time to move on. Interested parties can feel free to PM me if they wish to cover this further. However, if I choose to delve deeper into this whole PWT, I'll probably head for a board that specializes in adoption.

Moderator Cut

Last edited by Jaded; 03-25-2014 at 08:50 PM.. Reason: Flaming
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:22 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,980,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
Please don't assume that only one viewpoint is accurate or valid and that opposing views are "inconsiderate."

Finally, this is a public forum, not a private social club of like-minded individuals. If an individual chooses to post his/her personal experiences, then s/he must be prepared for other posters to respond to it.
I reposted this because I've had to delete three postings since writing it. Again, disagreement is not dismissal, no matter how many times it's stated as such.

As such, claiming that the adoptive parents on this forum are presumptuous about their children's feelings and that they are at risk of alienating themselves from them is not "disagreement;" it is flaming and off-topic.

Posters aren't required to agree with the OP. Getting upset because a poster discusses what is being asked, even in disagreement, defeats the purpose of posting on a public forum.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:49 PM
 
Location: S. Florida
1,100 posts, read 2,654,578 times
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I am an adoptive mom in an open adoption with my daughter's birth mom. I am also a mom to a biological child. I have been with my daughter (who is now 9), since she was less than 18 hours old. Aside from the few occasions where she has asked me questions about her birth mom, there really aren't any issues. She is a very bubbly, happy, sweet, bright and loving little girl. She has tons of friends, does well in school and has a wide variety of interests. My son (who is now 15) is pretty much the same way.

When I first held my son in my arms (he was born via c-section), I kissed him and said "mommy loves you." He started crying and fussing. LOL!!! He did not automatically recognize my voice, nor did I feel an "instant bonding" with my baby. It took daily holding, feeding, and caring for him to grow the bond between mother and child.

When I first held my daughter in my arms, she was a bit fussy. But she almost immediately calmed down and we stared into each others eyes seemingly forever. It was a beautiful moment that I will never forget. I felt an immediate connection and bond to her (more so than my my child I had given birth to).

Now, I do know that her birth mom held her for a few hours before leaving the hospital. I am not sure if that helped my daughter in any way. But if the primal theory is true, she was not ripped out of her birth mom's arms right after birth. She was held in her birth mom's arms for a long time. My daughter was able to hear her birth mom's voice, and smell her. There was a definite connection after she was born.

I know a lot of people who have been adopted. Not one of them (including my own husband) has behavioral problems, issues, etc.

On a side note, I often wonder what happens when a biological child turns into an adult serial killer. Some of them come from a supposed loving, secure home. Yet, they turn into monsters. What's that all about? Or kids that kill...or any other heinous crimes. Is it biology or environment that turns them into such criminals? Many of these people were NOT adopted. Just a thought...
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Old 04-01-2014, 11:01 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,122,267 times
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"What can a tiny baby know?"

A tiny baby can know who feeds him, changes his diapers, that he is being kept warm or cool and safe.

My daughter's foster mother, did that for four months. Then she came to us, and we did that. No trauma or drama

Incidentally, I did not feel an "instant bonding" with either of my babies. Biological or adopted. I did not gush tears when I first held either of them. Of course, I felt gratitude and satisfaction, but no instant love.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Chicago area
1,105 posts, read 2,897,482 times
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Everyone is different regardless of background. We know that abuse in childhood tends to cause, or at least contribute to, dysfunction later in life. Yet a lot of kids from abusive families do very well. Kids from the same abusive family can fare quite differently in life. I would guess that is because more than one thing makes us who we are. We're born with strength and weaknesses. Some handle certain situations better than others. I don't think that because certain experiences are not damaging to some means that those experiences aren't legitimately damaging to others. Maybe separation from one's mother in infancy is damaging to some while others handle it better. It would be interesting to compare adoptees to those who lost their mothers early in life but was raised by their fathers or other biological family.

I suspect that something about adoption, whether it's the separation from the bio mom, does cause problems for a larger portion of people than would otherwise be "troubled", for lack of a better word. When I was 15 I spent some time in a residential treatment center with many other "troubled" kids. The majority of the kids there came from dysfunctional and/or abusive families. The exception was the adoptees and there was quite a lot of them, many more than you would find in any other one place in society. I've never met so many adoptees in one place. Almost all of these kids came from nice, upper middle class families and had had good, stable, fairly happy childhoods. Many had parents who were very much involved and trying hard to help them (although some sadly had parents who had given up on them). It's not hard to figure out why the non-adoptees had ended up with the problems they had. But why had the adopted kids from stable, caring families ended up with the problems they had? I don't know the answer to that but I strongly suspect that it has something to do with adoption. I just can't come to a different conclusion. Exactly what that is, I don't know.

It would be interesting to compare adoptees who have always known they were adopted with those who found out as adults. I think that may shine a light on the question of if the problem is subconscious and due to the loss of the bio mother or if it's the knowledge of that loss and the feelings of abandonment that can cause.
I think it's interesting to note that the problems some adoptees experience are also experienced by people who have been raised by their bio moms but abandoned by their fathers. That makes me suspect that the issue isn't a primal wound but it's the betrayal that abandonment is. If you think about it, abuse and neglect by a parent is also a form of betrayal. Looking at all the kids I knew as a teenager that is really the issue they all had in common - betrayal by a parent. I think that may be the crux. Some simply are gifted with characteristics that can handle it better. At least that's my theory.
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Old 09-17-2014, 12:43 PM
 
2 posts, read 1,920 times
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As one who has discussed this very issue with hundreds of other adoptees, I can vouch for the fact that a substantial percentage of adoptees suffer from something akin to the "primal wound" (call it what you will). Anyone so self-rightous and dismissive as to call them liars should not parent any children, let alone adopted ones. There is at least one moderator here who fits that mold and who will, no doubt, remove this comment. No matter, this is not where intelligent people debate this issue and it shows.

Last edited by Jaded; 09-24-2014 at 01:06 AM.. Reason: Advertisement
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:30 PM
 
10,366 posts, read 8,361,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfant du peche View Post
As one who has discussed this very issue with hundreds of other adoptees, I can vouch for the fact that a substantial percentage of adoptees suffer from something akin to the "primal wound" (call it what you will). Anyone so self-rightous and dismissive as to call them liars should not parent any children, let alone adopted ones. There is at least one moderator here who fits that mold and who will, no doubt, remove this comment. No matter, this is not where intelligent people debate this issue and it shows.

Enfant du peche, this forum went through a lengthy and frequently heated to the boiling point discussion of this topic a couple of years ago. Things have settled down to a much more civil level now, and mutual respect for each others' viewpoints seems to have won the day, even when we must agree to disagree.

Your comment that "this is not where intelligent people debate this issue and it shows" only demonstrates your own judgmentalism about this forum and rudeness about its frequent posters - a forum in which you have all of one post.

I would suggest that if you have something constructive and new to offer here, that you first familiarize yourself with the current content and relevant history of the adoption forum, and that you avoid such sweeping statements about others here, in the interests of civil discussion and debate.

Last edited by Jaded; 09-24-2014 at 01:06 AM..
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Old 09-24-2014, 01:09 AM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,980,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfant du peche View Post
As one who has discussed this very issue with hundreds of other adoptees, I can vouch for the fact that a substantial percentage of adoptees suffer from something akin to the "primal wound" (call it what you will). Anyone so self-rightous and dismissive as to call them liars should not parent any children, let alone adopted ones. There is at least one moderator here who fits that mold and who will, no doubt, remove this comment. No matter, this is not where intelligent people debate this issue and it shows.
I'm pretty sure you're a previously banned member.
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:03 PM
 
9,133 posts, read 9,217,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfant du peche View Post
As one who has discussed this very issue with hundreds of other adoptees, I can vouch for the fact that a substantial percentage of adoptees suffer from something akin to the "primal wound" (call it what you will). Anyone so self-rightous and dismissive as to call them liars should not parent any children, let alone adopted ones. There is at least one moderator here who fits that mold and who will, no doubt, remove this comment. No matter, this is not where intelligent people debate this issue and it shows.
What you are describing would fail any sort of statistical analysis simply because you are talking about a "preselected group". The adoptees you deal with probably are involved in some kind of a group or in the cause of adoption reform because of some personal issues or concerns about adoption. It is not a random selection of adoptees.

This, in and of itself, does not invalidate the "primal wound theory", but it is far from sufficient proof of it.

Last edited by markg91359; 09-25-2014 at 10:13 PM..
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Old 09-28-2014, 03:30 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,586 posts, read 23,122,267 times
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When and if "primal wound theory" makes it into the DSM, I may reconsider it's existence for some individuals. However, that will never happen.

It's a cockamamie pop psych term with a self serving agenda, which is to make the institution of adoption abnormal and freakish.
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