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Old 11-18-2011, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Republic of New England
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I really do not know, but I know some try to say that they are consider white, but the photo I have seen they look too distinct in their physical appereance than the nothern europeans.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:56 PM
 
Location: San Antonio/Houston
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According to the recent DNA study Berbers are Caucasoid Arabs, even though they have Sub-Saharan; Black African ancestry. They possess a genetic profile that is intermediate between Europeans and Sub-Saharan Africans and have a close genetic relationship with Mediterranean Europeans but also possess some characteristics of Sub-Saharan Africans.
So, technically they are a mixture of Xanthochroi (White European) and Melanochroi (Mediterranean).

Berbers represent 80% of the population in Morocco and Algeria, more than 60% in Tunisia and Libya and 2% in Egypt, making up more than 50 million people. In addition there are about 4 million Berbers living in Europe, primarily in France.
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Macao
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I can't recall what Berber looks like exactly....I just know it's Morocco and some other nearby Northern Africa countries.

But, I don't think Northern Africans are really considered 'black'. I think they often get put into a vague catch-all 'arabic' umbrella, despite Berbers aren't Arabic.
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ area
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When it comes to the Berbers a lot of people seem to be misinformed. First and foremost the Berbers are Indigenous African people. Berbers are not Europeans and they are not Arab. They have had there own language and culture that predates Arab and European occupation. Like Tiger Beer said in the earlier post they often get put in a vague catch-all "Arabic" umbrella. The reason for that is that most Berbers today are Arabized due to the Arab invasions that happen around the 7th century AD. But even still, many Berbers still embrace their indigenous heritage and language.

On the topic of what race are the Berbers. It is clearly evident that they are part of the same race as the rest of the indigenous people of Africa. I know many people are going to say " How can they be black when they don't look like the average black person?" or an even more ridiculous question; "How is it possible for a "Black African" to be indigenous in Africa that is not in Sub-Saharan Africa?".

The problem with society is that we put to much emphasis on blackness when it comes to African identity. Africa spans over 6,000 miles from North to South, and it would be complete ignorance to suggest everyone in Africa is going to have the same skin complexion. When people think Black African they think only of Jet Black skin and anyone who doesn't fall into that category is somehow mixed or not a true African which is absurd. Also many people try to rely on the "Sub-Saharan" racial line divide as if that is somehow a great way to determine a racial divide between the "Black" Africans from the "Anything but Black" Africans.

Africa is Africa and if you are indigenous than you should be part of the African race. I don't know why most people in society go out of their way to refer to the Continent as "Sub-Sahara" or the even worse term "Black Africa". When applying the same rederick to other continents it sounds silly(ex. Red America, White Europe, and Yellow Asia). Also here is a link if any of you want to learn more about the Berber people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJc5yr3YU5U

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 11-18-2011 at 09:55 PM..
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:38 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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I understand it a little, but I disagree. Africa is the oldest place for human occupation. It has the most genetic variety so if "race" means anything then there is more than one "indigenous African" race.

So I think if there is a problem it's that we don't divide it enough and maybe sometimes think of "Black Africans" as being one "race." If race means anything "Black Africans" are not one race. The Khoisan and "Pygmies" (Twa, Mbuti, Baka, etc) are not of the same race as the Hutu or Yoruba.

This isn't totally unique to Africa. Native Americans aren't all one "race" either. There are the American Indians, most of what we know, and then in the North there's the Inuit/Yup'ik/Aleut. The I/Y/A arrived later from a different people. American Indians themselves might be more than one race as the Na-Dene people have significant differences and likely arrived later than other indigenous Americans.

As for the Berbers from what I find they are a non-Semitic (not Arab, Hebrew, or Ethiopian) Afro-Asiatic people. One genetic thing I find says they tend to be of Y-chromosome Haplogroup E, particularly E1b1b1b1 it seems.

Ethnologue report for Afro-Asiatic
Becoming eloquent: advances in the ... - Francesco D'Errico, Jean Marie Hombert - Google Books

It's not that "I don't want Berbers to be black." I think there are genetically related peoples that vary in skin-tone. Like the Semitic peoples vary from fairly dark-skinned Ethiopians to some of the lighter-skinned of Jews. It's just I think genetically and historically there are varied races in Africa and Berbers don't really count as one of the "black races."

In the US though this might sound provocative because "black" peoples were brought here as slaves and sometimes not differentiated. And also unity was important in giving them rights. So I can see how a white guy dividing black populations of Africa into "races" might seem suspect. However I don't think I'm creating anything, I'm more "the messenger." That Africa is a varied land I think is well accepted by science, sociology, and by Africans themselves. It also doesn't mean they can't unite as "Africans." Indigenous peoples of Alaska, Indian or Yupik, I think have at times united. Different races may share situations. But from my perspective lumping people together as "Africans", not that that is what you're doing per-se but I think it could be read as such, can lead to its own problems.
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Steubenville, Ohio
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Xanthochroi (White European) and Melanochroi (Mediterranean).

That sounds like someone is fooling around with a chemistry set and got some wild chemicals in the mix!

Whats the difference what nationallities they are... They are part of the HUMAN RACE, so that should be the end of it...

Unless your going to make 'race' and issue, then, thats your business, since its your thread, but, I dont see any difference from them and all the others in that area... They are all nomads, bedoin tent dwellers, that move from this place to that place, and pick up strays from each place they go, who become part of thier gatherings.

You would have to intiate DNA samples from each and every one to be 'specific' about each of thier origins...

I wish you well...

Jesse
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:54 AM
 
Location: San Antonio/Houston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodworkingmenace View Post

You would have to intiate DNA samples from each and every one to be 'specific' about each of thier origins...

DNA study was initiated and it was concluded that Berbers are Berbers are Caucasoid Arabs, even though they have Sub-Saharan; Black African ancestry.

More here:

Eurasian Origins of Berbers and modern North Africans. | Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Republic of New England
633 posts, read 560,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnina View Post
DNA study was initiated and it was concluded that Berbers are Berbers are Caucasoid Arabs, even though they have Sub-Saharan; Black African ancestry.

More here:

Eurasian Origins of Berbers and modern North Africans. | Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.
The idea of Caucasoid is outdated...unless it is related to central Asia and western Asia, but not central or northern Europeans. All their pyshical appearance has their uniqueness that seems to contradicting the Caucasoid features.

Berbers are not Arabs, but if they are Arab, it is just some little mix. Also some northern Africans got some European mix as well.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Brazil
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The Saara desert is a huge barrier separating the Berbers from the Subsaarian black people. The Saara desert was a huge natural barrier slowing the gene flow between North Africa and Subsaarian Africa.

It's interesting to note that, during the centuries of occupation of the Iberian Peninsula by the Islamic Caliphate, in the Middle Ages, there was some miscigenation between white Iberians, Arabs and Berbers.

The populations of Andalusia, in Southern Spain, and Algarve, in Southern Portugal, have a little bit of Arab and Berber "blood" because of that.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Republic of New England
633 posts, read 560,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
It's interesting to note that, during the centuries of occupation of the Iberian Peninsula by the Islamic Caliphate, in the Middle Ages, there was some miscigenation between white Iberians, Arabs and Berbers.

The populations of Andalusia, in Southern Spain, and Algarve, in Southern Portugal, have a little bit of Arab and Berber "blood" because of that.
Oh I been waiting to see comments like that lol


The original Iberians are decents of Berbers a very long time ago (northern Africans)... But when you mentioned little Arab and Berbers, unless we talking about non-spanairds in northern Spain who are mostly Germanic and Celtics immigrants to northern Iberia. But to say Spanish people who have little Arab and Berber (or even Sephardic Jew) are not even fully Spaniard because Spanish people are as much descendants to their arab roots as in arabic influences in Spanish language and culture, as an example. And a lot of these people left Spain to Latin Americas and North America. Some of them may not be Spanish,but spanish speaking Jews or Arabs. It is believed that Christopher columbus was a Jew!

I also want to mentioned that Berber langauge comes from East Africa around Samolia all the way down to the tip of Keyna, so the ancient Berbers must looked like East Africans.
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