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Old 12-03-2012, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Durham, NC
2,314 posts, read 2,763,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
If Zimbabwe is in trouble, I totally blame the European Union. The white colonialists stole land from the natives, and when the country legally took it back...the EU decided to say "You can't do that you guys...Screw sovereignty." and sanction them.

By the way, I understand the white "farmers" in Zimbabwe in addtion to getting the farmland by underhand means, had stopped producing food for local consumption on the land and instead grew crops such as flowers...for export. Regardless of the color of the invaders, no country would stand by and let its own people be starved so blatantly.

But after the expulsion of the settlers, the EU confiscated Zimbabwean's funds in overseas banks and enacted a lot of sanctions. These sanctions and the theft of the funds in banks (sorry my opinion is that it was theft), the country had an understandably difficult time importing the goods they needed to continue farming.

Do not be surprised that Zimbabwe did badly. Isn't that the point of sanctions? As far as I am concerned, every starving kid or person without a job in Zimbabwe is directly the result of the unfair actions of the EU. After forming the EU...European countries curtailed legal immigration from African countries.

So the Africans who had a lot of their wealth transferred to Europe, anyway...were not allowed to go there legally for work...in favor of Eastern Europeans etc...but these guys are to be prevented from prospering in their OWN countries? That's BS.

The US...including the OBAMA administration continued the sanctions. In a global economy such as ours, these sanctions are an effective way to cripple and starve a country. And that's exactly what was done to Zimbabwe.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | HARDtalk | Zimbabwe sanctions 'must be lifted'

There are a lot of "isms" all over the world, and no doubt Zimbabwe has its share of troubles, but now the arable land, mineral rights etc are in the hands of the natives of the country. I think in the long run it is the better choice for Zimbabwe.

There are so many of us in the US trying to live off the land, be self-sufficient and raise our own crops etc...That's the power of ownership of the land. Whatever the heavy costs were to Zimbabwe, I think Mugabe did the right thing in order to get his people's land back.
I do not argue that the colonial settlers did not always do right by the native people. Similarly, our forefathers did not do right by many of the Indian tribes here in the US. But I was not aware of major sanctions against Mugabe's regime until fairly recently. In fact, I am sure I read that most of the world would not sanction against him. Recall that the Rhodesians were embargoed by a good portion of the world during their last years.

Peter Godwin noted in his book When a Crocodile Eats the Sun that Mugabe seemed on the right track his 1st few years. Nations of the world began trading with Zimbabwe. Many Whites left but many stayed too & continued farming. Tourists came for the wildlife and scenery. I read of flowers, yes & tobacco, but I never read that farmers stopped producing food. Most of what I read was that Zimbabwe was self sufficient in food & exported it also, but that several years down the road, they had to import food, as farms were seized & taken out of production.

Godwin also noted Mugabe's massacre of many of the Matebele tribe, his tribe's traditional enemy. All too often, the freedom fighter becomes the new dictator; merely a change of the politics and skin color.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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Apparently some people believe Zimbabweans were scrounging for food while white farmers were living high on the hog until Mugabe started seizing those farms.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,977 posts, read 13,995,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Apparently some people believe Zimbabweans were scrounging for food while white farmers were living high on the hog until Mugabe started seizing those farms.
Apparently so.

It is also worth noting that the white farmers employed thousands of people, had schools on the farms for the worker's children, and many farms had set up industries for the wives of workers. The vast majority of farm workers were targeted along with the farmers, many of them lost their lives, the rest are now unemployed and homeless.

For those who haven't seen it, I highly recommend the movie 'Mugabe And The White African' for some insight into the farm seizures.



Mugabe and white african - YouTube
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,977 posts, read 13,995,763 times
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I'd also recommend a book 'African Tears, the Zimbabwe Land Invasions' by Cathy Buckle, and her blog has current information on goings on with regard to farm land and life in Zimbabwe:

Cathy Buckle News from Zimbabwe
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Sometimes Miami sometimes Australia
1,093 posts, read 2,579,663 times
Reputation: 1080
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
If Zimbabwe is in trouble, I totally blame the European Union. The white colonialists stole land from the natives, and when the country legally took it back...the EU decided to say "You can't do that you guys...Screw sovereignty." and sanction them.

By the way, I understand the white "farmers" in Zimbabwe in addtion to getting the farmland by underhand means, had stopped producing food for local consumption on the land and instead grew crops such as flowers...for export. Regardless of the color of the invaders, no country would stand by and let its own people be starved so blatantly.

But after the expulsion of the settlers, the EU confiscated Zimbabwean's funds in overseas banks and enacted a lot of sanctions. These sanctions and the theft of the funds in banks (sorry my opinion is that it was theft), the country had an understandably difficult time importing the goods they needed to continue farming.

Do not be surprised that Zimbabwe did badly. Isn't that the point of sanctions? As far as I am concerned, every starving kid or person without a job in Zimbabwe is directly the result of the unfair actions of the EU. After forming the EU...European countries curtailed legal immigration from African countries.

So the Africans who had a lot of their wealth transferred to Europe, anyway...were not allowed to go there legally for work...in favor of Eastern Europeans etc...but these guys are to be prevented from prospering in their OWN countries? That's BS.

The US...including the OBAMA administration continued the sanctions. In a global economy such as ours, these sanctions are an effective way to cripple and starve a country. And that's exactly what was done to Zimbabwe.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | HARDtalk | Zimbabwe sanctions 'must be lifted'

There are a lot of "isms" all over the world, and no doubt Zimbabwe has its share of troubles, but now the arable land, mineral rights etc are in the hands of the natives of the country. I think in the long run it is the better choice for Zimbabwe.

There are so many of us in the US trying to live off the land, be self-sufficient and raise our own crops etc...That's the power of ownership of the land. Whatever the heavy costs were to Zimbabwe, I think Mugabe did the right thing in order to get his people's land back.
Of course, Whitey's fault. Blame the whites

You have no idea. Firstly, the whites didn't just 'steal' the land. Treaties were negotiated with leaders of local tribes; many of those local tribes 'stole' the land from rival tribes who were there even earlier. The whites developed the land via agriculture and a lot of black people derived stable employment from these operations. The black population grew and people who were from tribes not even remotely close to these farm lands decided to descend on the whites for a 'piece of the action'. Their greed ruined it for everybody.
Where there was once fertile and productive farms now lies weed-infested fields and people are starving.
Yes, kinkytoes, blame the whites. Oh the whites . Get a history book while you are at it
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Land of Free Johnson-Weld-2016
6,470 posts, read 15,772,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tropical87 View Post
Of course, Whitey's fault. Blame the whites

You have no idea. Firstly, the whites didn't just 'steal' the land. Treaties were negotiated with leaders of local tribes; many of those local tribes 'stole' the land from rival tribes who were there even earlier. The whites developed the land via agriculture and a lot of black people derived stable employment from these operations. The black population grew and people who were from tribes not even remotely close to these farm lands decided to descend on the whites for a 'piece of the action'. Their greed ruined it for everybody.
Where there was once fertile and productive farms now lies weed-infested fields and people are starving.
Yes, kinkytoes, blame the whites. Oh the whites . Get a history book while you are at it
Sheesh. Now I feel a bit guilty. Not because I believe I am incorrect, but because it seems I was spreading hatred and hurt feelings.

No matter the color of the people, I believe the sanctions against Zimbabwe are the major behind the economic issues. I can't show you my adorable smile, but hopefully you'll feel better about my post.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:04 AM
 
Location: Durham, NC
2,314 posts, read 2,763,448 times
Reputation: 2793
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
Sheesh. Now I feel a bit guilty. Not because I believe I am incorrect, but because it seems I was spreading hatred and hurt feelings.

No matter the color of the people, I believe the sanctions against Zimbabwe are the major behind the economic issues. I can't show you my adorable smile, but hopefully you'll feel better about my post.
As I understand, sanctions against Zimbabwe started about 10 years ago? Mugabe had already made a mess of that nation. He stated in 1980 that he had been handed "a jewel of a country". Rhodesia had dealt with sanctions from about the late 60's to 1980, yet had maintained a relatively stable nation and economy in spite of it. Britain pushed Rhodesia into elections where a lot of voter intimidation took place. Mug got what he wanted and has been chief tyrant ever since.

Anyone feel free to correct or enlighten me. I am not from there, never visited. I do not know anyone from there, except a few I messaged with on Youtube. I have also read the books I mentioned by Peter Godwin, as well as other books.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:33 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,977 posts, read 13,995,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmellc View Post
As I understand, sanctions against Zimbabwe started about 10 years ago? Mugabe had already made a mess of that nation. He stated in 1980 that he had been handed "a jewel of a country". Rhodesia had dealt with sanctions from about the late 60's to 1980, yet had maintained a relatively stable nation and economy in spite of it. Britain pushed Rhodesia into elections where a lot of voter intimidation took place. Mug got what he wanted and has been chief tyrant ever since.

Anyone feel free to correct or enlighten me. I am not from there, never visited. I do not know anyone from there, except a few I messaged with on Youtube. I have also read the books I mentioned by Peter Godwin, as well as other books.
Your summary is correct.

Economic sanctions started with the the 'Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001'.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-10...-107publ99.pdf
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Land of Free Johnson-Weld-2016
6,470 posts, read 15,772,802 times
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The sanctions started shortly after the land was confiscated from the white settlers. I remember reading stories in the BBC discussing how the land was not yielding as many crops etc.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,977 posts, read 13,995,763 times
Reputation: 14852
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinkytoes View Post
The sanctions started shortly after the land was confiscated from the white settlers. I remember reading stories in the BBC discussing how the land was not yielding as many crops etc.
Yes, as I said both occurred in 2001. Remember Independence was in 1980.

I'm not sure where the crop yields come into play, that certainly had nothing to do with the 'Land Reform and Resettlement Programme'?
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