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Old 12-05-2012, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,259,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Well De Soto's emphases on the importance of property rights does play a significant role in helping a country to develop..

You don't know that. Property rights may have been coincident with economic development, but there is not necessarily cause and effect amid a lot of other economic changes, nor can you rule out general economic redirection being a facilitator of property rights changes which might have not been otherwise possible or fruitful. Property rights reform could have been an effect, rather than a cause, of economic development.

Even with deSoto's reforms, Peru now ranks 70th in the world in security of property rights, and 100th if counting only legal property rights. There are 7 subsaharan African countries that rank higher than Peru overall, and ten higher in terms of legal property rights, most of which are not exactly glittering examples of soaring economies.

http://www.internationalpropertyrightsindex.org/ranking

And even those figures are from Grover Norquists's Americans for Tax Reform Foundation, in which deSoto figures heavily as a bedfellow and crown jewel. I have to use their figures, because nobody else in the world is even talking about Property Rights, that's a complete fiction created by the right wing fringe. It is nearly impossible to even get a google hit on property rights, without deSoto having written it. It's like trying to get an objective hit on Castle Doctrine or Anchor Baby.

Last edited by jtur88; 12-05-2012 at 02:06 PM..
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,430,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
This article makes no mention whatsoever of DeSoto's miraculous "property rights" panacea to economic poverty. Which is why I said deSoto is BS.
You call it BS because your cherished Leftist ideology cannot nor has it ever delievered the same level of prosperity.

The same story played out even better in Chile. After prosperity came the loser Leftist were reduced to chasing an old man through international courts. Why can't folks admit that Leftist policies are not growth policies but merely redistributionist,stagnant policies?

How many examples does one need?
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,259,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
You call it BS because your cherished Leftist ideology cannot nor has it ever delievered the same level of prosperity.

The same story played out even better in Chile. After prosperity came the loser Leftist were reduced to chasing an old man through international courts. Why can't folks admit that Leftist policies are not growth policies but merely redistributionist,stagnant policies?

How many examples does one need?
You mean the democratic people whose freely elected president was assissanated by the CIA prosecuted a brutal tyrant who was imposed on them by a foreign power? I have not seen many posts by you criticizing the US for chasing an old man to Pakistan. More Chileans were murdered by Pinochet, than Americans by Osama. If Pinochet was so much more wonderful than Allende, why do you suppose the Chileans didn't just elect him in the fist place? How many examples does one need?

For the record, I called it BS because I looked at its source, not its rhetoric. Go ahead and bang the drum for every cockamamie idea that Fox News drags out in front of us --- loser rightists reduced to chasing the re-elected president through the mud.

My cherished lefties have always advocated property rights -- for everyone, not just the rich and powerful landlords. Here's an example. Guzman, in Guatemala, 1954. President who advocated, above all else, property rights and land reform. CIA overthrew him, to defend the "property rights" of United Fruit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Gu..._d%27%C3%A9tat

Trickle-down is a proven hoax. Stop pretending that policies (such as property rights) that solidify the power of the rich (such as deSoto's aristocratic family) are essential ingredients in the remedy for the impoverished.

Last edited by jtur88; 12-06-2012 at 11:36 AM..
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:38 PM
 
6,560 posts, read 9,072,595 times
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An economist talks about Property Rights in Uganda.




Safeguarding Property Rights in Uganda - YouTube
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:21 PM
 
15,545 posts, read 13,532,447 times
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Property rights are extremely important in economic development, but it is not the only factor, and may not even be the primary factor.

But given everything equal, the place with better property right laws will outpace economically another area with less property rights.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,430,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You mean the democratic people whose freely elected president was assissanated by the CIA prosecuted a brutal tyrant who was imposed on them by a foreign power? I have not seen many posts by you criticizing the US for chasing an old man to Pakistan. More Chileans were murdered by Pinochet, than Americans by Osama. If Pinochet was so much more wonderful than Allende, why do you suppose the Chileans didn't just elect him in the fist place? How many examples does one need?

For the record, I called it BS because I looked at its source, not its rhetoric. Go ahead and bang the drum for every cockamamie idea that Fox News drags out in front of us --- loser rightists reduced to chasing the re-elected president through the mud.

My cherished lefties have always advocated property rights -- for everyone, not just the rich and powerful landlords. Here's an example. Guzman, in Guatemala, 1954. President who advocated, above all else, property rights and land reform. CIA overthrew him, to defend the "property rights" of United Fruit. 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trickle-down is a proven hoax. Stop pretending that policies (such as property rights) that solidify the power of the rich (such as deSoto's aristocratic family) are essential ingredients in the remedy for the impoverished.
They are essential. Even in the USA studies have found that poor folks who own their own homes are more engaged in the fortunes of their neighborhood. Property rights is not a magic bullet other ingredients are needed human capital for one but it's an important ingredient.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Gorgeous Scotland
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IMO the number one reason sub-saharan countries in Africa are poor - corruption. Corruption is accepted by the populations are a part of life that can't be changed.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
554 posts, read 618,231 times
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I largely agree with jtur and by extension Ameriscot. The prime movers in promoting economic growth are peace, a strong rule of law, the empowerment of women and strong education. Property rights might ultimately form a necessary part of that rule of law, but they are not unto themselves the prime mover.

Over the past couple of decades, the Peoples Republic of China has seen economic growth on a scale which is completely unprecedented in human history, yet when it comes down to it; the state owns all of the land. When right-wing economists talk about 'property rights', I doubt that the Chinese example is what they're referring to. While China did introduce laws in 2007 which grant certain securities to people who control their property (the state still ultimately owns it), and no doubt this is a beneficial arrangement versus having no rights at all, it was not the prime mover behind Chinese economic growth because that growth can be shown to have began way earlier.

What the Chinese have in abundance is security. Both the Government and private enterprise can plan ahead with relative security over what the future will hold. They know that they're not going to have a western backed dictator topple the communist party and completely change the rules of the game mid-way through. By contrast, they know that they aren't going to have their western backed dictator toppled by a popular revolution which again will re-set the rules of the game. (Because they don't have a western backed dictatorship.)

Whatever criticisms you want to level about the Chinese Communist Party, they have provided a stable environment for businesses to grow and they have been broadly sensible with how they have governed. When the right-wing nutters get their hands on a newly 'liberated' country, they have a tendency to turn everything upside down overnight, no matter what carnage that inflicts on the poor. By contrast, every time another leftist leader wins the peoples struggle, they turn everything upside down overnight regardless of what carnage that inflicts on the wealthy. State subsidies and government budgets get slashed or increased overnight depending on who gets into power, leading to no end of confusion.

By contrast, the Chinese have done things one step at a time, and this more gradual approach to liberalising their economy has paid dividends. Property rights may have played a role in this, but to ascribe them as being the primary cause is just childish.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:22 AM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,031,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I firmly believe that, too, for one very obvious reason. Most of the Japanese on that ship are literate if not well educated, and have been employed in jobs where they have some responsibility, and know how to handle, operate and repair modern tools and machines, and are familiar with the principles of logical thought and anaylysis as well as the fundamentals of civics and governance, and have studied the history of failed and successful states. Going back to Japan are people who have never worn shoes and carry their water on their heads, do not know that snow or oceans or fish exist, and speak a language that has no word for ten or one hundred. And most disabling of all, the idea in this paragraph would never have occurred to them.
It's actually fascinating and sad at the same time. If you look at some of the statistics covering education and employment you see why some parts of Africa might be beyond repair, at least for decades. There was an article in the Economist last year about an auto parts manufacture who was looking to setup a factory in Côte d'Ivoire. In the end they simply abandoned the project. Not only was the complete lack of infrastructure and civil legal system a major problem, but there was virtually no work force despite an mass unemployment. The majority of the adult population has no education at all and has never held a job. The simple of concept of working a fixed and steady job and getting payed for it was foreign to the people. It's hard to think that is even possible, but when you have several generations that have lived outside of a functioning society then this is what you end up with.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:42 AM
 
6,560 posts, read 9,072,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eoin (pronounced Owen) View Post
Over the past couple of decades, the Peoples Republic of China has seen economic growth on a scale which is completely unprecedented in human history, yet when it comes down to it; the state owns all of the land.
As far as China. China has been moving towards expanding property rights.

China Steps Forward on Property Rights - TIME

China Property Rights May Be Increased


Generally speaking what a country gets with clear property rights is organization.

A market economy is based on private ownership of property but it needs to be clear on who owns what. Without it being clear on who owns what you simply wont know who should be the one owning property and who should be the one benefiting from that property. Property right laws help to clear that up. That's basically what De Soto is talking about with the benefits of property rights. This organization that you get from property rights makes a market economy work. In the video I posted on Uganda the economist pointed out how at that time about 85% of Uganda's property wasn't titled and recorded. Uganda will have problems advancing economiclly until they get clear on who owns what in that country.
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