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Old 01-23-2014, 03:13 AM
 
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I've always been curious as to how the Dogon knew all of this. It's truly remarkable.
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:03 AM
 
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Yes. As Carl Sagan postulated, they probably just got the information from someone who got there first.

In any event, some of what they say is wrong.
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Old 12-08-2014, 05:21 PM
 
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Playing the race card in this case is profoundly ignorant. You obviously have no understanding of the interaction between the anthropologists and the Dogon, the process by which the information was shared and recorded, and the mutual respect that developed between them. Marcel Griaule's interpretation of the Dogon's view of Sirius may be controversial, but not racist. Here you can see them performing a funeral ceremony using an effigy of him - they were hoping to use his real body, but that wasn't possible in the end. Would they be doing this if they in any way felt that he viewed them as inferior or "close minded" to their beliefs?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
Now the Astronomers who asked the Dogons this were mostly white people, and white people usually don't take black people seriously or see them as inferior.

When white people use the word "realistic", it usually means realistic in their world. Some might take offense to this, but you got to keep it real: White people are mostly close minded and feel like if white science can't explain, then it ain't credible.
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Old 12-08-2014, 11:23 PM
 
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It hasn't been exaggerated, it has been debunked. for one thing, the so called knowledge is not universal amongst all of the various Dogon people's but only particular to certain ones. Anthropologists who have followed up to test this so-called wisdom have found that the Dogon who do supposedly keep this knowledge don't seem completely aware about which star they are talking about. Various things in the Dogon cosmology held to be true are actually manifestly false, such as a second companion to the dogstar which scientists are now fairly certain does not exist. Those who do hold the knowledge may certainly have gotten in from Europeans.

A lot of fact bending went into making this myth. A few telling paragraphs form Wiki:

Noah Brosch explained in his book "Sirius Matters" that cultural transfer could have taken place between 19th century French astronomers and Dogon tribe members during the observations of the solar eclipse on 16 April 1893. The expedition, led by Henri Deslandres, stayed in the field for five weeks and it is reasonable that during this time many contacts with the locals took place, and that relatively modern astronomical knowledge was then transferred.

and

However, some doubts have been raised about the reliability of Griaule and Dieterlein's work on which The Sirius Mystery is based and alternative explanations have been proposed, such as the Dogon having been told about Sirius being a dual star system by astronomers who visited their region in the late 19th century. The claims about the Dogons' astronomical knowledge have been challenged. For instance, the anthropologist Walter Van Beek, who studied the Dogon after Griaule and Dieterlen, found no evidence that the Dogon considered Sirius to be a double star and/or that astronomy was particularly important in their belief system.


and

In 1978, Astronomer Ian Ridpath observed, in an article in the Skeptical Inquirer, "The whole Dogon legend of Sirius and its companions is riddled with ambiguities, contradictions, and downright errors, at least if we try to interpret it literally Ridpath stated that while the information that the Dogon probably gained from Europeans to some extent resembles the facts about Sirius, the presumed original Dogon knowledge on the star is very far from the facts. Ridpath concluded that the information that resembles the facts about Sirius was probably ascertained by way of cultural contamination. More recent research suggests that the contaminator was Griaule himself.[

and

One unproven aspect of the reported Dogon knowledge of the Sirius system is the assertion that the Dogon knew of another star in the Sirius system, Emme Ya, or "larger than Sirius B but lighter and dim in magnitude." A dynamical study published in 1995, based on anomalous perturbations of Sirius B (suggestive of the star being gravitationally influenced by another body) concluded that the presence of a third star orbiting Sirius could not be ruled out.[An apparent "third star" observed in the 1920s is now confirmed as a background object,something previously suggested by J.B. Holberg in 2007:
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Old 12-14-2014, 06:04 PM
 
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I was told by an African, that they didn't have to invent what we call modern technology because they already had
Spiritual Technology...I think that "primitive people" may be working with the 9/10 of the brain we don't know about..

These are societies with rituals involve people stabbing themselves and not bleeding, walking on hot coals, spinning and
dancing "haystacks" with NOTHING in them, objects moving by themselves etc.
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:42 PM
 
98 posts, read 92,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
I was told by an African, that they didn't have to invent what we call modern technology because they already had
Spiritual Technology...I think that "primitive people" may be working with the 9/10 of the brain we don't know about..

These are societies with rituals involve people stabbing themselves and not bleeding, walking on hot coals, spinning and
dancing "haystacks" with NOTHING in them, objects moving by themselves etc.
I would love to know what you're talking about. Anything on YouTube?
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Old 12-16-2014, 08:52 AM
 
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zangbetos on youtube
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Old 01-02-2015, 04:52 AM
 
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I'm certainly not going to defend Temple - for one thing, I'm only on my first reading of his book, and part way through an mainstream anthropological text about the Dogon, but if someone's going to make an argument that it's been "debunked" suggesting that this knowledge "could have" been or "probably" was passed to them by modern scientists is hardly conclusive. If these Frenchmen in 1893 were telling them about Sirius in 1893, why not a whole host of other things that would have completely altered their belief system? Information passed on to them only a few decades earlier would certainly have come across inconsistent and this should have been readily apparent. Being a skeptic takes no effort and is a position that be easily defended: "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be valid, hence it has no factual basis. In order for me to accept what they say is true, it must have 100% scientific proof, however all I have to do to debunk something is to make contradictory suggestions, no matter how unsupported." None of these "skeptics" spent years in the field, were accepted by the Dogons as one of their own, intimately understand their language and culture, or are trusted by them. Unfortunately, skeptics tend to epitomize the worst in western arrogance and ethnocentrism. Hardly unbiased people without an agenda. Did you really think that this argument would be put to bed because you trotted out these quotations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
It hasn't been exaggerated, it has been debunked. for one thing, the so called knowledge is not universal amongst all of the various Dogon people's but only particular to certain ones. Anthropologists who have followed up to test this so-called wisdom have found that the Dogon who do supposedly keep this knowledge don't seem completely aware about which star they are talking about. Various things in the Dogon cosmology held to be true are actually manifestly false, such as a second companion to the dogstar which scientists are now fairly certain does not exist. Those who do hold the knowledge may certainly have gotten in from Europeans.

A lot of fact bending went into making this myth. A few telling paragraphs form Wiki:

Noah Brosch explained in his book "Sirius Matters" that cultural transfer could have taken place between 19th century French astronomers and Dogon tribe members during the observations of the solar eclipse on 16 April 1893. The expedition, led by Henri Deslandres, stayed in the field for five weeks and it is reasonable that during this time many contacts with the locals took place, and that relatively modern astronomical knowledge was then transferred.

and

However, some doubts have been raised about the reliability of Griaule and Dieterlein's work on which The Sirius Mystery is based and alternative explanations have been proposed, such as the Dogon having been told about Sirius being a dual star system by astronomers who visited their region in the late 19th century. The claims about the Dogons' astronomical knowledge have been challenged. For instance, the anthropologist Walter Van Beek, who studied the Dogon after Griaule and Dieterlen, found no evidence that the Dogon considered Sirius to be a double star and/or that astronomy was particularly important in their belief system.


and

In 1978, Astronomer Ian Ridpath observed, in an article in the Skeptical Inquirer, "The whole Dogon legend of Sirius and its companions is riddled with ambiguities, contradictions, and downright errors, at least if we try to interpret it literally Ridpath stated that while the information that the Dogon probably gained from Europeans to some extent resembles the facts about Sirius, the presumed original Dogon knowledge on the star is very far from the facts. Ridpath concluded that the information that resembles the facts about Sirius was probably ascertained by way of cultural contamination. More recent research suggests that the contaminator was Griaule himself.[

and

One unproven aspect of the reported Dogon knowledge of the Sirius system is the assertion that the Dogon knew of another star in the Sirius system, Emme Ya, or "larger than Sirius B but lighter and dim in magnitude." A dynamical study published in 1995, based on anomalous perturbations of Sirius B (suggestive of the star being gravitationally influenced by another body) concluded that the presence of a third star orbiting Sirius could not be ruled out.[An apparent "third star" observed in the 1920s is now confirmed as a background object,something previously suggested by J.B. Holberg in 2007:
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Old 01-02-2015, 02:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken S. View Post
I'm certainly not going to defend Temple - for one thing, I'm only on my first reading of his book, and part way through an mainstream anthropological text about the Dogon, but if someone's going to make an argument that it's been "debunked" suggesting that this knowledge "could have" been or "probably" was passed to them by modern scientists is hardly conclusive. If these Frenchmen in 1893 were telling them about Sirius in 1893, why not a whole host of other things that would have completely altered their belief system? Information passed on to them only a few decades earlier would certainly have come across inconsistent and this should have been readily apparent. Being a skeptic takes no effort and is a position that be easily defended: "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be valid, hence it has no factual basis. In order for me to accept what they say is true, it must have 100% scientific proof, however all I have to do to debunk something is to make contradictory suggestions, no matter how unsupported." None of these "skeptics" spent years in the field, were accepted by the Dogons as one of their own, intimately understand their language and culture, or are trusted by them. Unfortunately, skeptics tend to epitomize the worst in western arrogance and ethnocentrism. Hardly unbiased people without an agenda. Did you really think that this argument would be put to bed because you trotted out these quotations?
Not sure you fully read up on the this- it does not appear that the Dogon universally have this purported knowledge, and at times do not seem to those who have investigated that any of them truly have it at all. What is more, they get an awful lot wrong, such as the second companion star which astronomers do not believe exists.

You can believe as you like, but there is no reason to attack skepticism. Fantastic claims require fantastic proofs, so anyone who believes this have the burden of proof.

It is your life, and you can believe as you will, but it pretty well has been debunked to the scientific community.

Sorry.
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Old 01-03-2015, 07:48 PM
 
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As I stated I'm not defending Temple, nor am I claiming any sort of belief in this. All I'm saying is that skeptics aren't providing factual evidence, rather are making arguments that are highly speculative themselves. Much of is no more than character assassination of Griaule (and a few others) and "research" by people who had a preconceived skeptical bias. Hardly what I would consider "debunked to the scientific community". Personally I'm not impressed by Temple's ideas about amphibian visitors to Earth; but I do have an issue with the fact that certain people will dismiss out of hand that ancient peoples could have had a much more advanced understanding of the cosmos than our arrogant "scientific community" will allow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Not sure you fully read up on the this- it does not appear that the Dogon universally have this purported knowledge, and at times do not seem to those who have investigated that any of them truly have it at all. What is more, they get an awful lot wrong, such as the second companion star which astronomers do not believe exists.

You can believe as you like, but there is no reason to attack skepticism. Fantastic claims require fantastic proofs, so anyone who believes this have the burden of proof.

It is your life, and you can believe as you will, but it pretty well has been debunked to the scientific community.

Sorry.
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