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Old 07-10-2013, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,212,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
What's the difference between someone who is a king vs someone who is a chief? Sometimes I've heard of tribal leaders being called kings then other times I've heard of them being called tribal chiefs. Is a king someone who rules over a larger tribe?



So then is there some merit to this 'descendant from kings and queens idea?' Or is it still an idea that gets stretched and exaggerated?
"King" is a word, in English, that is used to mean that the title is hereditary. When a king dies, a descendant automatically is entitled to become the new king, according to rules of heredity and inheritance. None of the Africans spoke English, so when political scientists examined their power structure, they used the word "king" to translate the African word if the rank and title met the criteria of the English word "king". They were called kings (in English) because they met the criteria for hereditary descent.

A tribal "chief" may or may not have some of degree of inheritance, but usually the word "chief" implies that the person was not put in power solely (or to any extent) on hereditary entitlement, but that the socisty as a whole (or at least the elders) had some degree of consent to his becoming chief.

In fact, the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma is holding its tribal election for chief this Saturday, which is nothing at all like a King:

Election 2013 Press Release

As a reminder to all registered voters the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma Tribal Election is set for July 13, 2013, for the offices of Principal Chief, Assistant Chief and Council Members. Voters may also cast votes in a Special Referendum for three (3) proposed changes to the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma Constitution.
Polls will open at 7:00 a.m. and close at 7:00 p.m. A Tribal enrollment card or a proper form of photo identification must be presented at time of voting.

Last edited by jtur88; 07-10-2013 at 08:10 AM..
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:09 PM
 
Location: USA
8,016 posts, read 9,476,913 times
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what's wrong with saying it?

it's better than being called the
n word all the time here in america.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,620 posts, read 16,419,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen Edhelwen View Post
IIRC (but I could be wrong) the famous abolitionist Olaudah Equiano (from a part of what's now modern-day Nigeria) was a tribal chief's son and was kidnapped by slave traders.
That's what he said but even when he was alive there were doubts about his story.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,910,584 times
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I know there were a few cases in Brazil where slaves who were royalty, and ended up ultimately leading slave rebellions after transport. Princess Aqualtune was one. A greater number had military background - many slaves were essentially captured as prisoners of war, and some generals ended up making it through. They put their natural leadership skills to good use.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,244 posts, read 26,214,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
When you hear that phrase what does it mean to you?

This phrase has been popular in U.S Afrocentric circles for years. It was even popular among Afrocentric rappers back in the late 80's and early 90's. It's basically this idea that black-Americans are descendant from a grand,majestic African past. But how realistic is it? Weren't most of our west and central African ancestors just farmers and fishermen?

To those of you who are African what is the actual relationship between kings/chiefs and the rest of the tribe? Are all tribal members considered to be related to the kings and queens of the tribe?
Um, I've never interpreted that line literally (I think you're referring to Nas, btw, who says this in many of his songs). I've always thought of it as an upliftment kind of thing where he's saying, "Hey, we're more than drug dealers and gangbangers...our ancestors actually came from a place that had civilization and achievements). I don't think he means that he can trace his way back to King Jaffe Joffer in the Royal Kingdom of Zamunda. But that's just me.

Akosua Busia, who played "Nettie" in the Color Purple, is actually descended from Ashanti Royalty. She's a beautiful woman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akosua_Busia
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,244 posts, read 26,214,003 times
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Here's a post where this guy digs into every detail and nuance of Nas' song "I Can."

History Lesson Gone Awry: Analysis of the Third Verse of Nas' "I Can" - General Music Reviews - Epinions.com

I'm honestly not sure why he wasted at least an hour of his life writing this post. It's a rap song, not a doctoral thesis. I thought the general theme of the song was fine even if there were egregious historical inaccuracies throughout. I'm not going to hold a rapper who barely finished high school to the same standard as John Hope Franklin.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,244 posts, read 26,214,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Another widespread myth is pretending that the union between a white person and a black person produces a black child (as oppose to a mixed-race child), but that's another can of worms. lol
That's not something conceived by African Americans. That was the law of the land in this country and that's still the popular perception today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Too many lies can't possibly be good for any society and to me this points towards the possibility that African Americans as a group, or maybe just a good percentage of them, have some serious self-image problems.
It's not that deep. I view it as being more metaphorical than anything. I don't feel any more compelled to challenge Nas or KRS-One on the historical accuracy of their lyrics than I do to challenge the writers of the Walking Dead on the scientific accuracy of a potential zombie apocalypse. If there's a problem here, it's people taking what entertainers say way too seriously. If you want to nitpick something to death, you'd be better off nitpicking bills that go through Congress that impose restrictions on our civil liberties. That would be a more productive use of time.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:58 PM
 
Location: California
1,191 posts, read 1,285,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Its an ego boost, nothing more!

The reality is that there's no way an authentic African American (think descendants of the slaves that were brought to the USA as oppose to African Americans from more recent migration) would descend from royalty, because people belonging to African blue blood were never sold into slavery by the African slave catchers and traders.
Just out of curiosity, how can you be so sure about events that took place between 200 to 500 years ago? These same events are at best very limited in their documentation. So how can you even make a claim like this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
The "majestic African" kingdoms in the Bight of Benin area, which is where most African Americans would trace their African genetics if they actually do a DNA test, became rich thanks to the slave trade. Europeans even paid rent for the land that their slave holding castles in Western Africa were built and they even asked permission from the African royalty in order to built those castles in the first place!
First off, blacks of the Western Hemisphere can have ancestry all over the map so to speak. It's not like there is a straight line of decent from southern Nigeria to Atlanta. Second you are ignoring the fact that the United States was colonized at varying times by four different European groups, all of which traded in slaves in one capacity or another. For the most part, the Dutch, English, French, and Spanish got their slaves from different areas of West Africa. For example, the French who controlled Louisiana got many of their slaves from Senagal. However, the British traded heavily with Nigeria. So the average black American has ancestry from a multitude of tribes. You are trying to take something with countless moving parts and greatly oversimplify it to fit a preferred narrative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
The royalty of many of these Western African kingdoms waged wars against their neighbors for the sole purpose of capturing new flesh to be sold to the European traders who stayed on the coast. When a new group was captured, the high ranking Africans of the captured group was usually slaughtered (or sacrificed) and his everyday people (ie. the non-blue blood types) were sold into slavery.
And you know for a fact no tribal leaders were ever sold? Was sacrificing rival leaders the custom of certain tribes or all of them? We are talking about various tribes over hundreds of years of slave trading. Are you sure this was the practice across the board the whole time? Seems very unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
The only Americans of full or partial African ancestry that may descend from royal blood are those who descend from Africans that migrated on their own well after slavery and even segregation ended. Take, for example, Barack Obama. He might be of blue blood because of his Kenyan born father (I don't know if he is, I'm simply stating that he has a much greater chance of descending from African blue blood than the typical African American, for the sole reason that Obama doesn't descend from slaves.)
Once again, how would you have anyway of even attempting to prove this? You are talking about a phenomenon that last multiple centuries over thousands of miles worth of space. "Royal" families can and do change over the generations. Tribes change and evolve. None of this is static.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
There is simply no way that royalty was sold into slavery by the very Africans, so there's also no way that descendants of slaves in the USA have a royal past.
Same thing. Over nearly 500 years, thousands of miles of land, multiple European traders, and many, many tribes there is NO WAY, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
The whole "descendants of kings and queens" is nothing more than one more myth that is perpetuated in the African American community.
It is not perpetuated by the "African American" community. A few Afrocentric academics, most of whom had their heyday in the '70's, are responsible for that line of thinking. Just as the overwhelming majority of African Americans don't celebrate or even observe Kwanzaa, the majority of us don't run around talking about being descended from African kings and queens. (And yes, I know Kwanzaa has nothing to do with Africa.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Another widespread myth is pretending that the union between a white person and a black person produces a black child (as oppose to a mixed-race child), but that's another can of worms. lol

Also the suppose "Willie Lynch Letter" is another lie that many African Americans believe was true.

Too many lies can't possibly be good for any society and to me this points towards the possibility that African Americans as a group, or maybe just a good percentage of them, have some serious self-image problems.
Right, because you have such great insight into a group of 40 million people. Look, it makes you seem ignorant to make claims with such certainty about a phenomenon that took place over hundreds of years with countless tribes, multiple European countries, and ever changing political/economic circumstances. And this is all so you can come to some grand conclusion about African Americans. You would be better just saying black Americans have a self image problem and leaving it at that. Trying to cloak it in some kind of historical enlightenment doesn't work well.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
159 posts, read 182,100 times
Reputation: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
That's what he said but even when he was alive there were doubts about his story.
I remember reading about that, but what are those based on beyond two records where his birthplace is listed as "(South) Carolina?"
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:51 PM
 
6,551 posts, read 9,065,861 times
Reputation: 2832
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11KAP View Post
what's wrong with saying it?
I think it's an over simplification of our African ancestory.

Yes we had empires and kingdoms ruled by kings in west and central Africa. But not every black-American is going to be able to trace their ancestory to a king. Most of our African ancestors were common people. Also every continent had kings/royalty. Europeans had kings and queens but you don't hear them saying that "we whites are descendants from the great kings and queens of Europe".
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