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Old 07-15-2013, 01:55 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,437 posts, read 22,360,988 times
Reputation: 8625

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
If you cared to read what I was responding to, then you would have seen that the poster had stated "often the worse place to find out about a group of people is from that group themselves". Which was a ridiculous statement to make. Common sense would tell me if I wanted to know about the history and authentic culture of certain ethnic groups in China for example, I would go to the people who are part of that culture and history and not someone who is foreign from that culture or is looking at it from a third person perspective.
You go ahead and keep oversimplifying to make your argument valid. Everyone reading this thread who is more than a week old knows that within most groups, people tend to romanticize, exaggerate and often, even if unwittingly, lie about who they are as people. People tend to have a certain sense of pride in who they are and once you insert pride into the mix, especially in a collective sense, you will invariably get distorted facts.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,483 posts, read 10,467,331 times
Reputation: 5401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
You go ahead and keep oversimplifying to make your argument valid. Everyone reading this thread who is more than a week old knows that within most groups, people tend to romanticize, exaggerate and often, even if unwittingly, lie about who they are as people. People tend to have a certain sense of pride in who they are and once you insert pride into the mix, especially in a collective sense, you will invariably get distorted facts.
So in order to get accurate history and culture from a certain ethnic or racial group, it needs to be a foreign group for authenticity because that certain group is unable to tell their own history and culture. So I guess we should dismiss the historical documentation that a country like Japan has done unless a foreign group says it's culture and history is legit? History has shown that foreign groups who have conquered or colonized another group have been known to distort or hide facts when it comes to the history of the people they have conquered.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:34 PM
 
Location: USA
8,016 posts, read 9,484,126 times
Reputation: 3406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
You go ahead and keep oversimplifying to make your argument valid. Everyone reading this thread who is more than a week old knows that within most groups, people tend to romanticize, exaggerate and often, even if unwittingly, lie about who they are as people. People tend to have a certain sense of pride in who they are and once you insert pride into the mix, especially in a collective sense, you will invariably get distorted facts.
whatever yo. i wouldn't try to tell
you about who and who your people
are not. that's just rude, but go on if
it makes you feel big.


it doesn't impress me anymore than
i am even attempting to impress you.
forgetaboutit. people can feel however
they want to feel about africa's glorious
past. hate all you want.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:36 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,437 posts, read 22,360,988 times
Reputation: 8625
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
So in order to get accurate history and culture from a certain ethnic or racial group, it needs to be a foreign group for authenticity because that certain group is unable to tell their own history and culture. So I guess we should dismiss the historical documentation that a country like Japan has done unless a foreign group says it's culture and history is legit? History has shown that foreign groups who have conquered or colonized another group have been known to distort or hide facts when it comes to the history of the people they have conquered.
Yeah you're exactly right, the only in this thead to be right.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:37 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,437 posts, read 22,360,988 times
Reputation: 8625
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11KAP View Post
whatever yo. i wouldn't try to tell
you about who and who your people
are not.
that's just rude, but go on if
it makes you feel big.


it doesn't impress me anymore than
i am even attempting to impress you.
forgetaboutit. people can feel however
they want to feel about africa's glorious
past. hate all you want.
You already have. Obviously you've not paid much attention before responding to me.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,419 posts, read 11,926,143 times
Reputation: 10539
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
What I'm referring to is the history of certain groups spreading lies and deceit about the history of certain cultures just to justify some sort of racial superiority. Usually these groups come from certain people who have conquered or colonized another group. Therefore they feel that they have the highest authority when it comes to explaining what that culture is about and the history of the people they have conquered or colonized. Of course things have gotten a lot better in modern times but it's still far from perfect.
The difficulty is, some groups really do have unique cultural differences, which reflect badly on them. For example, When Napoleon Chagnon reported on the violence in Yanomami society, he came under heavy attack in the academy. The attack, however, was not on the factual merits of his work (although this is subject to some debate, over half of men in that society die due to violence) but because there was concern that the perception of the Yanomami as a violent people would be damaging to their land tenure in their home. It went so far as some anthropologists baselessly accusing Chagnon of intentionally spreading measles and handing out machetes.

The bottom line is that acting as an advocate for a group and a scholar are incompatible. We're taught by critical theory to examine the agendas behind why particular ideas are embraced, but ultimately something has to be true, and it's not always the thing which fits with our own preconceived notions the most.

But back to the original point, you are correct that sometimes oral tradition tells us a lot. The Lemba, for example, really do seem to be black Jews - or at least descended from a male line of Jews. The main issue with the the extreme "Afrocentrist" viewpoint is not that it's wrong because it's black people studying black people. It's that it's wrong because it starts with a conclusion already made, and then looks for supporting evidence. That is rhetoric, not science.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
If only it were that simple. I am guessing you may not be black. It seems like "oh they're just rappers" is the simple way to go. I think what's not being understood is that, these rappers are quite often the voice of the people who listen to them and often rap about the things that are truly believed by many. Myths run rampant in the Black American community especially if it's anything that may give a self esteem boost, irrespective of whether it's accurate or not.
Yes, it is the simple way to go. And the simplest approach is often the correct one. Who is taking Nas and Dead Prez literally other than the 1,000 people (you included) that can't distinguish between the literal and metaphorical?

This thread is a complete waste of time. You're sitting here arguing about what a dumb ass rapper said. Not the President. Not the Secretary of State. Not the Secretary of Homeland Defense. But a rapper.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,259,760 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
If you cared to read what I was responding to, then you would have seen that the poster had stated "often the worse place to find out about a group of people is from that group themselves". Which was a ridiculous statement to make. Common sense would tell me if I wanted to know about the history and authentic culture of certain ethnic groups in China for example, I would go to the people who are part of that culture and history and not someone who is foreign from that culture or is looking at it from a third person perspective.
You were responding to a poster who was agreeing with me, and you are still wrong. And I explained why you were wrong (if you cared to read what I wrote), and I'm not going to repeat it.
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,483 posts, read 10,467,331 times
Reputation: 5401
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Yes, it is the simple way to go. And the simplest approach is often the correct one. Who is taking Nas and Dead Prez literally other than the 1,000 people (you included) that can't distinguish between the literal and metaphorical?

This thread is a complete waste of time. You're sitting here arguing about what a dumb ass rapper said. Not the President. Not the Secretary of State. Not the Secretary of Homeland Defense. But a rapper.
I don't get that logic either. They are just rappers. The fact that some posters on here are taking their lyrics so literal as if they are presenting historical documentation.
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,259,760 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
I don't get that logic either. They are just rappers. The fact that some posters on here are taking their lyrics so literal as if they are presenting historical documentation.
You're defeating your own argument. "Just Rappers" are living representatives of and spokesmen for the culture, and you say they know best and are to be taken literally, over the scholarship of any external academics and researchers. You proposed that if we want to know about some obscure culture in China, we go and ask "just rappers" who are members of that culture and take it literal as if they are presenting historical documentation.
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