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Old 09-03-2013, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,189,484 times
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Anyway, I'm getting off track. To answer the OP's question:

The reason Africa tends to have bad leaders is because Western Powers want African leaders who are manipulable so the West can get what they want from Africa. Naturally, this means corrupt, self-serving and generally crooked human beings will be subtly weaseled into power who don't mind shafting their countrymen for a Rolls Royce and a couple palaces... the 21st century equivilent of beads and baubles.

And to top it off, Western Powers WANT us to think of the region in a certain way. If they can control that, it is easier to take advantage of the reigon without too many other folks getting upset over it. Therefore, we tend to wrongly think of Africa as a place that is better off as a strip mine or oil field.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,424,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneTraveler View Post
Europe's elite also did that in East, South-East, and South Asia and Latin America. You don't see those regions blaming white people for their problems. Those regions have all embraced industrialization and are working hard to bring better lives to their people.

Its funny how you say that Africans don't have the skills to develop their countries. South Korea was poorer than Ghana fifty years ago. Fifty years prior to that and Ireland was probably poorer than several African countries. These nations were even worse off than Africa is today. They taught themselves the skills they needed to develop. Africans need to teach themselves as well. It is not the responsibility of other people to hold your hand through everything.

This is something Haiti needs to learn as well. Haitians love to blame the world for Haiti's problems, yet they will never reflect on their own cultural flaws. But that is for another topic.
Right again don't forget Malaysia too. Ghana was wealthier then them as well. Don't get me started on Haitians, they're just an utter embarrassment to the diaspora.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,424,212 times
Reputation: 6348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Anyway, I'm getting off track. To answer the OP's question:

The reason Africa tends to have bad leaders is because Western Powers want African leaders who are manipulable so the West can get what they want from Africa. Naturally, this means corrupt, self-serving and generally crooked human beings will be subtly weaseled into power who don't mind shafting their countrymen for a Rolls Royce and a couple palaces... the 21st century equivilent of beads and baubles.

And to top it off, Western Powers WANT us to think of the region in a certain way. If they can control that, it is easier to take advantage of the reigon without too many other folks getting upset over it. Therefore, we tend to wrongly think of Africa as a place that is better off as a strip mine or oil field.
Oh no the poor African is easily manipulated by the all great & powerful White man to do his bidding. Do you people actually believe this crap? Newsflash people and states do what is in their interest. If what the White man is doing in Africa is a detriment to Africans then the Africans better find away to around them.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,424,212 times
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Originally Posted by Tex?Il? View Post
euphemism: "Us white people are biologically and genetically superior, and the world would be better off, if we went back to dominating them, and restricting colored folk to menial labor."
Im Black of Ghanaian ancestry. Facts are fact best folks embrace them so problems can be solved. BTW East Asians on average have a higher IQ than Whites. Why would Whites, if they're so invested in White supremacy, erroneously put out a narrative where they come out in the middle in term of IQ?
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Old 09-03-2013, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,189,484 times
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Oh no the poor African is easily manipulated by the all great & powerful White man to do his bidding. Do you people actually believe this crap? Newsflash people and states do what is in their interest. If what the White man is doing in Africa is a detriment to Africans then the Africans better find away to around them.


Look, this isn't a black vs white thing; it's a core vs periphery thing. In this case, the core happens to be mostly white while Africa is mostly black but obviously there are both races on both sides.

It IS about the 1st world keeping the 3rd world down for the 1st world's benefit, however.

Countries will naturally act in their best interest, but they aren't free to do whatever they want because they aren't equally powerful. Africa is caught in a trap it can't get out of because of obstacles purposely placed it it's way (corrupt leaders weaseled into power and huge debts to the IMF/World Bank). Opressors are opressors... the color of the the oppressor is inconsequential.
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Old 09-03-2013, 05:35 PM
 
605 posts, read 465,023 times
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The problem with discussions of Africa and its problems is that the debates tend to become dominated by people like Edward A and Chango. Both of whom are wrong. One spouting the "africas problems are the white mans doing" nonsense and the other spouting the "africans are biologically inferior' nonsense.

With all due respect, both of these perspetives are foolish and do nothing but distract from what the real and useful analysis needs to be.

Edward A continually brings up IQ scores and asks the rather ill informed question of "why would racist whites have created a test on which asians score better?" Well, when the test was initially concieved, asians, jews, italians and other groups did not score better. In the beggining it was nordic wasps who held the highest scores. The scores for various groups changed as their cultural traits changed and modernized, which is the actual aspect of IQ history that should be understood. The issue at hand is not the validity of the test, or some misguided assertion that it is a sham or "culturally biased", as some minority leaders have unfortunately been given to claim in the past. The issue is (and this is where Edward A errs) that the reasons for IQ differences btw groups is cultural and psychological not biological, and the history of the test supports this.

Regarding Changos misguided blame laying for Africas troubles on colonialism or some deliberate attempt to keep them down in modern times. This is mistaken as well. The flaws that hold africa back are overwhelmingly the ones that existed prior to colonialism. They are in fact the very flaws that made the africans vulnerable to easy conquering in the first place. Tribalism, despotic & corrupt leadership, general social and cultural backwardness. These are the triats that plagued africa before. Colonialism was brutal and wrong, but the europeans gave as much as they took, and had africa wise, clever leadership, there is no western plot to keep them down that could succeed.

If you want to actually solve a problem such that it no longer exists, you have to be harshly honest about the real reasons. Not give in to easy face saving external blame laying, and certainly not give in to the dark romanticism of racialist caste fantasies.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:05 PM
 
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Could it perhaps be that because smart people don't stay there? I mean, who would, by choice?
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:39 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,703,267 times
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Quote:
Tribalism, despotic & corrupt leadership, general social and cultural backwardness. These are the triats that plagued africa before. Colonialism was brutal and wrong, but the europeans gave as much as they took, and had africa wise, clever leadership, there is no western plot to keep them down that could succeed.
You know from all the discussion it just appears that quite a of 'corruption' is rotting the whole African hulk. If you ask me it's hard to root out. Really hard. I do not believe there is a concerted effort anywhere to try and remove this from African societies. And I'm just thinking if there was would it perhaps look like Mexico? In some places due to turf wars, complete anarchy reigns and the 'law' doesn't mean a thing. Only the gun talks.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:28 AM
 
6,555 posts, read 9,068,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post

The flaws that hold africa back are overwhelmingly the ones that existed prior to colonialism. They are in fact the very flaws that made the africans vulnerable to easy conquering in the first place. Tribalism, despotic & corrupt leadership, general social and cultural backwardness. These are the triats that plagued africa before...
Ok but how do you explain the Mali and Luba empires and how well they were governed?



There was also the Benin kingdom:

Quote:
Some of our best information on Benin in its heyday comes from A Description Of Guinea, a travel guide written for Dutch businessmen by Pieter de Marees in 1602. Marees quoted many travelers to West Africa, notably one D.R. (Dierick Ruyters?), who was impressed by the size of Benin City:

"[The city is] very great when you go into it [for] you enter a great broad street, not paved, which seems to be seven or eight times broader than the Warmoes street in Amsterdam; it goes straight in and never bends." Ruyters went on to report that his lodgings were "at least a quarter of an hour's going from the gate, and yet I could still not see to the end of the street." And the side streets branching from the main one looked just as long: "You cannot see to the end of them because of their great length."

Sixty years later, another Dutch visitor, Olfert Dapper, wrote that the king's palace was a complex of buildings and courtyards that "occupies as much space as the town of Haarlem and is enclosed within walls. There are numerous apartments for the Prince's ministers, and fine galleries most of which are as big as those on the Exchange at Amsterdam.

A History of Africa, Chapter 6
Quote:

Amazing Benin

In effect, Europeans there found an Empire with a complex administrative system. The king, the Oba, exercised a great religious power and also political...

Lite Strabo: Amazing Benin
Pre-colonial Africa wasn't as backwards as you are trying to portray it as.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,424,212 times
Reputation: 6348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
The problem with discussions of Africa and its problems is that the debates tend to become dominated by people like Edward A and Chango. Both of whom are wrong. One spouting the "africas problems are the white mans doing" nonsense and the other spouting the "africans are biologically inferior' nonsense.

With all due respect, both of these perspetives are foolish and do nothing but distract from what the real and useful analysis needs to be.

Edward A continually brings up IQ scores and asks the rather ill informed question of "why would racist whites have created a test on which asians score better?" Well, when the test was initially concieved, asians, jews, italians and other groups did not score better. In the beggining it was nordic wasps who held the highest scores. The scores for various groups changed as their cultural traits changed and modernized, which is the actual aspect of IQ history that should be understood. The issue at hand is not the validity of the test, or some misguided assertion that it is a sham or "culturally biased", as some minority leaders have unfortunately been given to claim in the past. The issue is (and this is where Edward A errs) that the reasons for IQ differences btw groups is cultural and psychological not biological, and the history of the test supports this.

Regarding Changos misguided blame laying for Africas troubles on colonialism or some deliberate attempt to keep them down in modern times. This is mistaken as well. The flaws that hold africa back are overwhelmingly the ones that existed prior to colonialism. They are in fact the very flaws that made the africans vulnerable to easy conquering in the first place. Tribalism, despotic & corrupt leadership, general social and cultural backwardness. These are the triats that plagued africa before. Colonialism was brutal and wrong, but the europeans gave as much as they took, and had africa wise, clever leadership, there is no western plot to keep them down that could succeed.

If you want to actually solve a problem such that it no longer exists, you have to be harshly honest about the real reasons. Not give in to easy face saving external blame laying, and certainly not give in to the dark romanticism of racialist caste fantasies.
There is a genetic component to IQ but I agree there are cultural influences as well. There are even variation in IQ among various ethnic groups within Africa and even countries.

Oh btw I hear about 2 million people are at risk of starving in Zimbabwe. Happy days, eh?
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