U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Africa
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-05-2013, 10:54 AM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,718,209 times
Reputation: 3109

Advertisements

His staunch defiance in the face of Western pressure is commendable and Africa's leaders, going forward, would do well to learn from his example.

Just my perspective.

Mugabe is of course an intelligent, sophisticated and shrewd politician and statesman.....like Washington. Only difference is I think his 'moralities' are somewhat different. Considering the state of the country, isn't the Zimbabwean kettle near the 'boil?'
How much can a people take?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-05-2013, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
9,584 posts, read 9,466,138 times
Reputation: 6755
Here are some lines from John Milton's poem Paradise Lost spoken by Satan that could be applied to Mugabe, particularly the boldface text:

[…] Here at least
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

In other words, better to be the leader of a nation full of poverty and misery than a subject in a prosperous colony.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-05-2013, 12:16 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,718,209 times
Reputation: 3109
Powerful stuff eloquently said. I think before any change can occur the vines will need to be ripped up but really so many depend on them for their 'sustenance'. I have no idea how Zimbabwe will go on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-05-2013, 05:34 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
9,033 posts, read 8,778,252 times
Reputation: 5667
Quote:
Originally Posted by dub dub II View Post
History will remember Mugabe differently than how he is currently thought of. He took a people colonized by racists and delivered them to a state firmly controlled by the majority. He's more successful than a lot of Western leaders...a product of his time, perhaps slow to catch up to modern political realities, still, a man who did a lot for his people given his circumstances and deserving of a lot more respect than he is shown.
Zimbabwe used to be the breadbasket of southern Africa; now it's an economic basket case. In 2007-08 his inept central bank president printed so much money that Zimbabwe briefly experienced an annual inflation rate of 89,700,000,000,000,000,000,000%. That is not a misprint. Now Zimbabwe uses US dollars and other foreign currencies. What little economic activity that takes place in Zimbabwe now is in spite of Mugabe and his ZANU-PF thugs, not because of them.

And of course he has now stolen a fourth consecutive Presidential election. Just because he's managed to live this long doesn't make him "successful" by any means. It just means he's bad at quitting (and dying). Fortunately he'll be dead soon and Zimbabwe's long torment might, just might, be coming to an end.

Just my perspective.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-05-2013, 10:15 PM
 
5,239 posts, read 6,780,854 times
Reputation: 11326
But he isn't feeling any poverty with his wife shopping in Singapore and him going to Switzerland for medical care. Let him spit in the face of the west who has given and given to the African continent, oh those terrible western nations. And if South Africa had not been assisting them, Zim's population would be even worse off. His defiance is pointed at anyone that criticizes his record and this fraud election, whether that's those in the west or people closer to home. Who's to say how soon he will pass, even another 5 years with this mad mad ruling is way too long. So Travric, you speak of moving forward, how can that be with only more of the same to look forward to? I don't know how one can say anything he does is commendable.

Here is an interesting sad article worth a read. The author says, "I am most afraid that apathy and a lack of faith in the international community - understandable given the years of white-washing the region has done over our previously rigged polls - will allow this farce of an election to fizzle into the accepted status quo without so much as a whimper". I have the same fear.

Mourning the loss of hope and security in the wake of a shamelessly stolen election: what can we do? | Sokwanele
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-05-2013, 11:20 PM
 
3,522 posts, read 3,936,740 times
Reputation: 2170
^The only shame is that he had to have an election at all to secure his position. The country's power is out there to be had. If anyone wants it, they can take it. Power isn't given, it's taken. At least it is in Africa. If Zimbabweans really had an issue with their leadership, they would have ousted Mugabe a long time ago. Again, you're judging a country by Western standards. This is Africa. There is a reason why leaders ruling until their death, or else old age, is common place. It falls within traditional values.

I think it's about time Western and African alliances are severed. Clearly it is not a healthy relationship and it's similarly clear that African and Western ideologies are so contrary so as to not be able to be reconciled. The West, insisting on its role of helper to African states, continuously interferes in matters to their own benefit and while that is to expected of the West, due to ideologies commonly espoused there, it's high time that difference is emphasized and acted upon.

The African State of Zimbabwe can be summarized as an archetypal African State. The Zimbabwean hegemony controls the State and the people of the State are left to either thrive or suffer according to their own individual abilities. The hegemony's job is to keep itself intact and it's only within a strong cultural environment that that is possible. It is currently popular within the West to put blame on Mugabe, as if State figureheads are the end all and be all of all that happens within that State, however the power of a State's people always remains with those people, or else should. This is problematic to Western sensibilities and is indicative of the level of difference between the two viewpoints. Zimbabwe's situation as it is currently isn't to due to a lack of competence from Mugabe...indeed, Mugabe has proven himself extremely competent on a personal level. I challenge any one man to grab and keep power of any State for 30 odd years and not be deposed of. Given his situation, the environment in which he took power, and the state of the world during that time period, expecting a different result, especially with knowledge of African political realities, was foolhardy.

The "economic basket case" that colours the West's perception of Zimbabwe may or may not be accurate...I do not know nor do I care to speculate. What I do know is that while African States descended into near anarchy in many cases, and total anarchy in some cases, the Zimbabwean leadership has managed to deliver a state that is relatively intact with a strong cultural tradition and identity. It is far from perfect, however given Mugabe's imminent death, it could have been a lot worse. I'm not talking economics or political moralities...I'm talking the formation of a new state. First and foremost is the proper coagulation of State's identity and Mugabe has successfully done that when so many States have not. Somalia, DRC, Sudan....these are failed states in that they can't even be considered States.

Economic and military power will come, and over the coming decades it isn't hard to imagine that they'll come swiftly, given a change in priorities...however, Mugabe's job has always been to do one thing...secure the State of Zimbabwe. I defy anyone to mention one recent African leader that has done a better job of that, outside of Mandela, of course.

The main criticism the West has of Mugabe is his length of tenure. However, and this is yet another split in the ideological differences of the West and Africa, I see nothing wrong with having a long serving leader. Africans defer to age and experience, as we all should. But we are not all African, and those are our values. Skewed as they may be to you, in Africa they make sense. As I said previously, the fact he has kept power of his State for so long is impressive as, in Africa, if the people he controlled were really dissatisfied, he would have been eliminated.

I'm excited for a post-Mugabe Zimbabwe, but I'm equally thankful for the strong leadership he has provided while the various problems that have plagued his country were/are going on. Many leaders would have folded, or else would have been forced to fold. He didn't. He did what he was supposed to do, what any good leader does...he kept his power and he kept his State.

Going forward, assuming the focus goes from nation forming to nation building, Zimbabwe is in an enviable position. If not solely for geographic and economic reasons, then culturally, at the very least.

However, going forward, if the attitude of the West doesn't change (that is, financial aid in exchange for political and moral compliance), I'd urge African leadership to look elsewhere for assistance (...or else to just buck up and become self sufficient...which is where the focus should be in the first place and not on useless political games...). There's no reason to not take advantage of South American and Chinese advances and to in turn leave the West to head in whatever direction they're headed.

But, just because we part, we mustn't part on bad terms. It was fun, and we're thankfully, however our interests come first. If we must learn something from the West, it's that. The only one that cares, that really cares about Africa are Africans. The rest of the world delights in our ineptitude. As an African, your job is to start making the rest of the world miserable.

Get it?

Last edited by dub dub II; 08-05-2013 at 11:44 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2013, 02:03 AM
 
4,454 posts, read 5,761,167 times
Reputation: 2187
Well Zimbawe situation is not so different with so many poverty stricken African countries: widespread shortages of basic commodities, and $217 in the bank. That’s right: $217– after years of rapid inflation, improper land appropriation, and high civil servant wages, Zimbabwe is more susceptible than ever to economic shocks. After years of speculation about Mugabe’s poor health, it is not a surprise that the people of Zimbabwe are waiting to hear when the next man or woman will have an opportunity to hold the highest office in the land

'Ol Bob Mugabe Turns 89. Zimbabweans Have Little To Celebrate

In addition years before Zimbabwe got involved in the war in the Congo years ago and that did add to the deficit. Plus there has been professionals that have been much underpaid.

With that there is no free education anymore in Zimbabwe and there was a time it used to have it. As a result thousands of children flee to South Africa in order to get a education as education is free there.

At one time, Zimbabwe boasted of having one of the best education systems in Africa, but in 2008, amid hyperinflation and political violence, the country sank into chaos.
Teachers went unpaid, and school fees rocketed.
Most Zimbabwean families still value education, however, and believe sending children to South Africa to access free education is a sacrifice worth taking.
Zim children in desperate search for free SA education - DailyNews Live

Zimbabwe prior to independence was one of the best economics in Africa, and neighbouring Botswana was one of the poorest countries. Yet the leaders of Botswana were much more better economically competent and as a result Botswana is one of Africa wealthiest countries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2013, 06:09 AM
 
4,454 posts, read 5,761,167 times
Reputation: 2187
Africa would be better off with the thugs of Mugabe and people like him and have people more like Patrick Ngowi who is only 28 and from Tanzania and made a US$8million fortune from selling solar energy in Tanzania.The Young African Millionaire Lighting Up Tanzania - Forbes Its people like him that can help create countries in Africa from third world nations into developed countries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2013, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
9,584 posts, read 9,466,138 times
Reputation: 6755
dub dub II,

You're not a poor African are you? Only an upscale leftist who feels guilty about his or her privileged background can believe stuff like that!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2013, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
9,584 posts, read 9,466,138 times
Reputation: 6755
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99 View Post
Africa would be better off without the thugs of Mugabe and people like him and have people more like Patrick Ngowi who is only 28 and from Tanzania and made a US$8million fortune from selling solar energy in Tanzania.The Young African Millionaire Lighting Up Tanzania - Forbes Its people like him that can help create countries in Africa from third world nations into developed countries.

Fixed it for ya!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Africa
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top