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Old 02-02-2014, 02:53 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,447 posts, read 22,457,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I'd agree, but I'd remind you of something: People over the age of 50 are still in control of politics and industry in the US. So our racism and fear of racism are still the controlling policies of politics and industry in the US.

Younger people--especially Millennials--have to understand and deal with the fact that they are still being effected by racism that they don't personally accept, and will until they themselves are in control of politics and industry--another 25 to 30 years...when the Boomer generation is dead.
I get what you're saying but here is why I say things are different; as someone else mentioned, there was a time when blacks were taught to fear whites, not look them in the eye etc. For Gen X and Millennials, whites often fear blacks and won't look us in the eye or clutch their purses etc. this breeds a different kind of racism than what was around in the 60's. racism back then was born out of domineering behavior where as the racism that came later is born out of fear which is a completely different thing and must be dealt with differently. We can't respond to 21st century racism in a 1960's fashion. Racism born out of fear puts the person with the fear into outright survival mode. It's no longer about "we must show them who's top dog" but more about "we must do whatever it takes to protect ourselves". That has the potential to be more dangerous. Only thing different is that it's not really as widespread but certainly still there. those people over 50 still running things have largely changed tactics to this latter form so we must change tactics as well and the younger generations must live in their world and deal with their world.

 
Old 02-03-2014, 01:54 AM
 
7,457 posts, read 5,973,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
I get what you're saying but here is why I say things are different; as someone else mentioned, there was a time when blacks were taught to fear whites, not look them in the eye etc. For Gen X and Millennials, whites often fear blacks and won't look us in the eye or clutch their purses etc. this breeds a different kind of racism than what was around in the 60's. racism back then was born out of domineering behavior where as the racism that came later is born out of fear which is a completely different thing and must be dealt with differently. We can't respond to 21st century racism in a 1960's fashion. Racism born out of fear puts the person with the fear into outright survival mode. It's no longer about "we must show them who's top dog" but more about "we must do whatever it takes to protect ourselves". That has the potential to be more dangerous. Only thing different is that it's not really as widespread but certainly still there. those people over 50 still running things have largely changed tactics to this latter form so we must change tactics as well and the younger generations must live in their world and deal with their world.

Gentoo your response is more appropriate to blacks above 70. It was they who lived most of their lives under extreme racism.


People like me (late 50s) would have spent most of our lives with the white fear of us that you describe. Males especially. We really need to examine the psychosis behind it, because it is not just tied to fear of black violence, or upper middle class black men wouldn't have to worry about having to deal with it. Indeed I find that white MEN are more afraid of us than are white females, another reason why I think that its not fear of violence.

Such fear manifests even within an office environment if three black men, wearing expensive suits, happen to meet in an elevator. Clearly we aren't there to attack and rob anyone so there is something else that is going on, and I would love white men to tell us what.

Some would said "FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET" some time in the early 90s. Hmmmmmm. Maybe, especially after watching the Super Bowl.

So we have adjusted our behavior to know that we have to combine being "non threatening" with being seen as being effective, competent, and assertive.


Those of us who are older are closer in age to those who move and shake things. The whites who you are around, respond to the signals that this older cohorts sends out. So don't dismiss that 50-65 age cohort as being a bunch of old fools still thinking that the KKK is coming to get them. There are things that we know that you might not.

Indeed we know more about white fear of the black man than you do because we represent the era of the race riots and of escalating crime and white flight of the 70s and 80s.

Now I happen to agree with you that people shouldn't frame their attitudes based on an earlier era if that is no longer relevant. This country is much less racist than it was 30 years ago. Few whites are indifferent about being called racist, whereas 30 years ago most didn't care, and some were even proud of it. I really do believe that the average white person doesn't want to think that he is harming any one.


To quote a black author, whose name escapes me. "its no longer what whites are doing to us. Its what they are doing WITHOUT us". Contemporary racism is harder to prove, and so a good many nice people do racist things (excluding people) without meaning to, and ought to be gently reminded of this.

We can ignore the trolls like clb10 who is upset that he cant use the "N" word any more so rants endlessly about the pathologies which impact 20-30% of us, as if they can be used to describe black behavior in general.
 
Old 02-03-2014, 08:17 AM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,447 posts, read 22,457,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Gentoo your response is more appropriate to blacks above 70. It was they who lived most of their lives under extreme racism.


People like me (late 50s) would have spent most of our lives with the white fear of us that you describe. Males especially. We really need to examine the psychosis behind it, because it is not just tied to fear of black violence, or upper middle class black men wouldn't have to worry about having to deal with it. Indeed I find that white MEN are more afraid of us than are white females, another reason why I think that its not fear of violence.

Such fear manifests even within an office environment if three black men, wearing expensive suits, happen to meet in an elevator. Clearly we aren't there to attack and rob anyone so there is something else that is going on, and I would love white men to tell us what.

Some would said "FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET" some time in the early 90s. Hmmmmmm. Maybe, especially after watching the Super Bowl.

So we have adjusted our behavior to know that we have to combine being "non threatening" with being seen as being effective, competent, and assertive.


Those of us who are older are closer in age to those who move and shake things. The whites who you are around, respond to the signals that this older cohorts sends out. So don't dismiss that 50-65 age cohort as being a bunch of old fools still thinking that the KKK is coming to get them. There are things that we know that you might not.

Indeed we know more about white fear of the black man than you do because we represent the era of the race riots and of escalating crime and white flight of the 70s and 80s.

Now I happen to agree with you that people shouldn't frame their attitudes based on an earlier era if that is no longer relevant. This country is much less racist than it was 30 years ago. Few whites are indifferent about being called racist, whereas 30 years ago most didn't care, and some were even proud of it. I really do believe that the average white person doesn't want to think that he is harming any one.


To quote a black author, whose name escapes me. "its no longer what whites are doing to us. Its what they are doing WITHOUT us". Contemporary racism is harder to prove, and so a good many nice people do racist things (excluding people) without meaning to, and ought to be gently reminded of this.

We can ignore the trolls like clb10 who is upset that he cant use the "N" word any more so rants endlessly about the pathologies which impact 20-30% of us, as if they can be used to describe black behavior in general.
Perhaps it's me who's a bit out of touch with those older than me. Typical Gen Xer. Now that you mentioned it, those in your age group would have around the age of moving and shaking things. I agree the country is much less racist now and many whites do find it offensive to even hint at them being racist. the racism that is there is harder to prove like you said and it's this combination is less + more subtle = potentially more damaging IMO.
 
Old 02-03-2014, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,616 posts, read 54,993,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
Here's what I learned reading the last page of this thread:

Racial experiences vary by region as I have mentioned a while back in this thread. However, it also varies with the generation. For many people over the age of 50, racism seems to be alive and well. Between about 30 and 50 it's somewhat there depending on where you are and it's worth it to move forward rather than look back. For people under 30, they think the rest of us are complete lunatics for making such a big deal out of it at all regardless what race they are. I would say to my generation, the one in the middle, keep moving forward. For the younger generation, try not to be so dismissive and to the older generation, don't try and shove your experiences down everyone else's throats. Those are your battles, not ours. We have our own issues to deal with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I'd agree, but I'd remind you of something: People over the age of 50 are still in control of politics and industry in the US. So our racism and fear of racism are still the controlling policies of politics and industry in the US.

Younger people--especially Millennials--have to understand and deal with the fact that they are still being effected by racism that they don't personally accept, and will until they themselves are in control of politics and industry--another 25 to 30 years...when the Boomer generation is dead.
Do remember that the over-50 crowd includes the people who marched on Washington and fought against racism and for civil rights.
 
Old 02-03-2014, 03:06 PM
 
7,457 posts, read 5,973,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
it's this combination is less + more subtle = potentially more damaging IMO.

I am in 100% agreement with you here. Read any of the racist rants on the Political forum and you will see some whites in deep denial of racism.

Indeed we now have a new phenomenon. The Weeping Whiny White Male who blames all of his personal inadequacies, in addition to valid complaints of growing income inequality, on blacks. When they get turned down for their dream job, quite clearly its because all of these blacks are getting these jobs. When they are shown that this couldn't be as black male college grads earn what white male high school grads earn, then we get another irrational outburst. Now all blacks are lazy thugs who just want a hand out, usually accompanied by some hysteria of Obama being a man who "hates whites", and ending with the moan that the only people who face bias in 2014 are straight white men, as blacks, foreigners, women, and gays have now apparently taken over all facets of life in the USA.

And in terms of blacks. We get a justification for black dysfunction among the black poor by middle class blacks who are struggling to find evidence of racism to justify their assessment that race is a factor in the USA.

So yes the subtleties of INSTITUTIONAL racism are hard to prove now that only pathetic characters OPENLY display SOCIAL racism.
 
Old 02-04-2014, 11:19 AM
 
98 posts, read 93,355 times
Reputation: 211
I still do not understand why people are arguing about what blacks in America call themselves.

Blacks didn't start the movement to call themselves African American. Nor is it anyone else's right to deny them the right to call themselves that term or any other term for that matter. What African Americans call themselves is no one else's business, especially if they aren't apart of that group.
 
Old 02-05-2014, 09:28 AM
 
10,569 posts, read 13,186,764 times
Reputation: 6374
Their genetics.
 
Old 02-05-2014, 03:18 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,447 posts, read 22,457,972 times
Reputation: 8641
Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
Perhaps you have heard of the Schomburg Center:
Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture | The New York Public Library
It is named after a Hispanic Black man who as a boy was told that he had no cultural ties to Africa and thus no history other than his slave history. He proved them wrong and amassed the single greatest collection of artifacts and documents that proved Black people in the western world have numerous cultural ties to Africa. He donated his personal archives to the NY public Library in Harlem. You should visit it some time.
Langston Hughes Poem "I've Known Rivers" is based on what he learned from Arturo Schomburg. Arturo was not a scholar ,just a simple man who worked as clerk and spent his life and livelihood on his belief that black people are indeed Africans in the Americas.
I Think you missed my point. Black American culture itself evolved in the US. I can't speak for Black Hispanics as I am not one. Also, saying what you're saying finished Black American culture into some catch all African culture which in itself diminishes the various cultures throughout Africa. My genetic ancestry is African (among several other things). However I ak no more African cuturally than the white and Asian sitting next to me.
 
Old 02-05-2014, 04:33 PM
 
9,517 posts, read 10,247,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
I Think you missed my point. Black American culture itself evolved in the US. I can't speak for Black Hispanics as I am not one. Also, saying what you're saying finished Black American culture into some catch all African culture which in itself diminishes the various cultures throughout Africa. My genetic ancestry is African (among several other things). However I ak no more African cuturally than the white and Asian sitting next to me.

I don't know what your perception is of West African culture, but I can unequivocally say that I would much more like to be perceived like some of the West Africans I have met than some randomly selected Whites or Asians. One of the first West Africans that I met as a young man told me he was taught at an early age that there are Africans all over the world. Black people in the US who want to denounce their cultural ties to Africa are probably mocked by West Africans.

They will say give us back our; banjo, our tonal language, our braided hair, our reliance on a strong female, our sweet potatoes, peanuts, okra, black-eyed peas, rice, and watermelon.

Give us back our charismatic preachers, our story tellers and stories that your mother raised you on. Give us back our oral culture that allowed your people to know history without writing it down.

Give us back our scale and our blue notes and Stevie wonders voice, syncopation and improvisation so you could develop jazz.
Give us back our words that made you look so cool on the street like; hip, bogus, jive, jazz, boogie, dig, and mojo.

Yep , you got to give it all back.

Last edited by thriftylefty; 02-05-2014 at 04:53 PM..
 
Old 02-05-2014, 08:08 PM
 
20,363 posts, read 11,294,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
There's a difference though; Russians, Germans etc. do have a "cultural" heritage to other parts of the world. Black Americans on the other hand have a "racial" heritage to another part of the world but our culture, the culture we know as American black culture has only ever existed in America. It was built from scratch, from the ground up. Black Americans may not be able to trace their actual ancestry family member by family member all the way back to Africa (except maybe the odd exception). However, we can trace our American heritage in this country back further than a great deal other Americans since many today of all races except native Americans are descendant from people who immigrated here AFTER slavery ended. Martin Luther King, Malcom X, Fredrick Douglas etc. That's our legacy and our history in this country. The country shaped us but we also shaped the country. People may argue forever about what we did and did not contribute so I won't get into that here. What is clear is that the USA most Americans love would be a very different place had we never existed here.
Well, we went through a number of terminology changes just in my own memory, from colored to negro to black (not "black American," just black--because we didn't claim America for a while when I was a teenager) to Afro-American to African-American.

Take your pick or make up a new one, but it's a fallacy just to say "American" to reference "persons descendent from Africans brought to North America between 1619 and 1809." That's even more meaningless than "differently abled."

BTW, blacks in America were calling themselves just plain "African" in genteel company up through the Civil War.
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