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Old 09-06-2013, 03:41 PM
 
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Just because Ethiopians and others from the Horn of Africa have a culture with similarities to the Middle East does not mean they are more Middle Eastern or not an African people. Due to their geographical location they have been in close contact with South Arabia and the rest of the Asian, Mediterranean and Indian Ocean world for centuries, going back to before the common era. So of course they will show some influences from those non-African people. But to say that they're not black African is a joke.

All the Ethiopians and Somalis I've met consider themselves black and associated with other black people from Africa, the Caribbean and North America. Some may be racially mixed, but on the whole they are and have always been a black African population group.
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Old 09-06-2013, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,424,212 times
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Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
I think you need to learn about African history more. European colonization destabilized the continent and left it in terrible shape. Contrast that to what was going on to Africa prior to colonization and I think you will find it hard to try and sustain your argument.
Depends on where, when and by whom. Living standards were raised in many colonies such as the Gold Coast and Senegal. In others like the the Congo it was an unmitigated disaster.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:30 PM
 
574 posts, read 1,670,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
I think you need to learn about African history more. European colonization destabilized the continent and left it in terrible shape. Contrast that to what was going on to Africa prior to colonization and I think you will find it hard to try and sustain your argument.
I'll say this: I would say that European colonialism didn't necessarily "destabilize" Africa; I would say they introduced a unique system of imperialism that most Africans were not used to, and this has led to much conflict on the continent.

But that is the nature of empire; different cultures come in contact with each other, and the culture with superior military tactics dominates the other culture; and through its superior military tactics, it can force its culture onto the other culture.

Africa is different from pre-colonial times, no doubt. I'm not saying that it is a bad thing, nor a good thing. I'm just saying it is what it is.

But if you want to call Africa "destabilized" then so be it. But Shaka Zulu destabilized alot of people also.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:32 PM
 
574 posts, read 1,670,424 times
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Jeez. Caracas and Bangkok are latitudinally below the Sahara, too, but that doesn't make them Sub-Saharan. Most of Ethiopia lies east of the eastern-most meridian of the Sahara Desert. which is situated where the Sudan/Eritrea border meets the Red Sea.

Educated Ethiopians and Bantus do not consider themselves to be anthropologically related, because Ethiopians developed in a region east of the Sahara, isolated from the Bantus ans strongly influenced by Asiatic ancestry and probably of Asiatic origin. Everybody (except some posters to this thread) agree with that.

"Wilson et al. (2001), an autosomal DNA study based on cluster analysis that looked at a combined sample of Amhara and Oromo examining a single enzyme variants: drug metabolizing enzyme (DME) loci, found that 62% of Ethiopeans fall into the same cluster of Ashkenazi Jews, Norwegians and Armenians based on that gene. Only 24% of Ethiopians cluster with Bantus and Afro-Caribbeans, 8% with Papua New Guineans, and 6% with Chinese"
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v29/n3/full/ng761.html via
People of Ethiopia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please stop disseminating opinionated generalizations for which no basis exists.
Ethioipian culture is largely Asian by influence if not ultimate origin, and one of the typically Asiatic attributes of their culture is that they possess a literate history based on a written language. Due to long isolation, this is one of many significant differences, that they do not share with the people of Sub-Saharan Africa, which for the purposes of this discussion, means south of and isolated by the Sahara, not east of it. Ethiopians are not "isolated" by the geographical barrier of the Sahara, because they can easily communicate around the desert, by sea, which they have done for many millennia, greatly to their cultural and intellectual advantage..
Beautiful post. But question: Are Ethiopians black? What's your view on that?
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:33 PM
 
Location: America
6,985 posts, read 15,479,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Most of the writing developed in west Africa was developed after Europen contact.

For example:

Kisimi Kamara developed Mende writing in 1921.

also:





If these writings were secret then how has it been proven that they existed in ancient times? Where is the evidence for these writings in ancient times? Who has documented their existence in ancient times?
You are trying to comment on something you clearly have no knowledge of. I am going to assume you did a quick Google search to try and prove your point. However, true research and understanding doesn’t come from by skimming the internet for opinions being asspoused by people who know as much as you do, which is little too nothing. To me, what is really telling is, you think the ONE written language you mention, which is Mende can be used to paint a picture of a continent that is the size of America, china, and parts of Europe combined. You are exteremely naďve and uninformed to say the least.

Do you even know the history of the Mende Language? I assure you I do, my family is from Wanjama in Sierra Leone, and I sir, am Mende. Kamara didn’t develop anything! What he did was, he took a written language that has existed for thousands of years and tried to popularize it, so that initiated and uninitiated people could use it. You see the same thing happen with the Vai script, however they are both derived from older Mande scripts, all of which are taught to initiates in the secret societies in West Africa; and they have been there before even Europeans knew how to write.

For example if you read the peer reviewed article by Dr. Konrad Tuchscherer from St. Johns University titled “The Lost Script of the Bagam”, he clearly shows that the scripts in Nigeria and Cameroon were being used LONG before Europeans EVER entered into Africa. Europeans first saw it in the early 1900s, but it predated their arrival. You can get that article on Jstor. The same is true of Nsibidi, which is another script, which is ancient and again predating Europeans. The fact of the matter is, you don’t know enough to have this conversation, so I don’t understand why you think that by arming yourself with quick Google Searches and no pre knowledge of the subject, you can even have this discussion. I even provided a website that has a audio presentation by a professor from the University of Houston, that attest to the antiquity of African Writing, which again is older than anywhere else in the world. Yet you, someone who is not a scholar on the subject, think some silly Google search can trump true scholarship from professors, are you serious? In fact there is writing found in a Grotto in the Sahara, the name of which escapes me, and the article on it is in French, but anyway, it is one of the earliest writing examples found in the world. The thing about it is, it seems to be related to the Vai and Mende scripts. The reason that is, is because the writing systems found in the Poro secret society is a Mande script and it is those scripts that Vai and Mende are based on. I should add Mande people originate in the Sahara, which is where the Grotto is located.

As to your last question about them being documented in ancient times, you have the writing they are descended from in the Sahara, in “grottos”. Here is a good article on the subject by Dr. Clyde-Ahmad Winters of the University of Chicago http://olmec98.net/mandeWriting.pdf and his work is peer reviewed I should add. What that means is, when a professor writes a article to be published in a journal, other professors look over the work, question anything they feel was not substantiated and the person can either remove that bit or better defend the work. Once that happens, the work is published in a journal. So there is little room for professors to lie or make up crap in these instances.

So to recap, Europe has no writing system of its own. Latin based writing comes from the Greek, the Greek writing comes from the Phoenicians and the Phoenician writing comes from the Egyptian (you can read the work by Dr. Martin Barnal, specifically Black Athena for more information on that). Africa on the other hand has hundreds of writing systems that are the oldest in the world.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:35 PM
 
Location: America
6,985 posts, read 15,479,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
I'll say this: I would say that European colonialism didn't necessarily "destabilize" Africa; I would say they introduced a unique system of imperialism that most Africans were not used to, and this has led to much conflict on the continent.

But that is the nature of empire; different cultures come in contact with each other, and the culture with superior military tactics dominates the other culture; and through its superior military tactics, it can force its culture onto the other culture.

Africa is different from pre-colonial times, no doubt. I'm not saying that it is a bad thing, nor a good thing. I'm just saying it is what it is.

But if you want to call Africa "destabilized" then so be it. But Shaka Zulu destabilized alot of people also.
you can say whatever you want, but unless you know post and pre colonial African history and know it well, then your assumptions are nothing more than fantasy. My family is from Sierra Leone, I know African history better than most I would say, and to make the claim that European colonization didn't destabilize the continent is beyond the scope of historical reality.
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:50 PM
 
574 posts, read 1,670,424 times
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Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
you can say whatever you want, but unless you know post and pre colonial African history and know it well, then your assumptions are nothing more than fantasy. My family is from Sierra Leone, I know African history better than most I would say, and to make the claim that European colonization didn't destabilize the continent is beyond the scope of historical reality.
Ok, fair enough.

But let me ask you a serious question (I'm not trolling or anything):

In your opinion, what makes Africa today "destabilized." As in what aspects of African societies do you think have changed for the worst due to European imperialism?
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Old 09-06-2013, 05:54 PM
 
Location: America
6,985 posts, read 15,479,318 times
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Depends on where, when and by whom. Living standards were raised in many colonies such as the Gold Coast and Senegal. In others like the the Congo it was an unmitigated disaster.
If you compare West Africa in 1500 to Europe, you will see that the standard of living in Africa was FAR higher than the European counterpart. Our cities were vaster, denser, there was more wealth, education standards were higher and on and on it goes. I suggest you read Tarikh Al Sudan and Tarikh Al Fettash, both talk about the history of West Africa and how people were living and both were written by Africans. Your assertions are unfounded, un-provable and dare I say, fanciful. Look at this


Ancient West African Megacities trimmed - YouTube <---- notice they say the mega cities rivaled mesopotamia. For the uneducated that would be Sumeria, so these places were contemporary with Sumeria the so-called cradle of civilization.

I don't get how people with no real knowledge of a people or their history, can have the unmitigated gall to try and make such ridiculous statements and try to pass them off as facts.
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:28 PM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,535 posts, read 2,025,555 times
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If Egyptians, Ethiopians and Somalians aren't black, then Greeks and Romans weren't white. They were darker and more swarthy than their northern European counterparts. Honestly without Greek, Roman, Chinese, Arab etc. influence, northern Europe would be pretty barbaric.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
1,473 posts, read 2,368,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
That is the central crux of the thing. A written language is essential to any civilization in the post-Sumerian sense of the word. There have been a few cultures that have left behind an interesting artifact or two in the absence of a written language, but they simply cannot be thought of as "civilizations" in the modern form.
I've never known of civilization to be defined that way. Certainly a major component is lacking when there is no literacy but it's still a society or civilization (if you prefer).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The well -known kingdoms of Africa, Benin and Ghana and the rest, were possible only because they had a system of writing and record keeping with borrowed Arabic. Prior to the incursions of cultures bringing written languages from the north, Africans simply had no means of organizing advanced cultural institutions.
Not Ghana, which was founded in 300 AD - 400 AD and was thriving when the Arabs first visited. Again, lack of literacy is a major hurdle, but that doesn't mean that past societies could not build cities, set up trade networks, and amass wealth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Africans were basically Stone-age, until about the 8th century, when Arabs began importing slaves and gold from Sahelian Africa, and left the Arabic language and other cultural residue for the Africans to utilize in establishing formidable empires.
It's generally accepted that iron metallurgy reached sub-Saharan Africa around 500 BC. Most historians think it was introduced from Egypt by way of Nubia. This technological advantage allowed the Bantu peoples to expand south from the Sahel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The point is, anything that is in any way "cultural" in Africa was brought there by non-Africans from the north, which constitutes, in one fashion or another, Colonialism -- whether continuously enforced with political boundaries or not. "Pre-colonial Africa" was before the Arabs in the eight century, and before then, there was nothing that anyone could stretch into any semblance of what would be called culture today.
Whenever you have groups of people living together with a common set of traditions, values, language, and way of life, you have a culture.

Last edited by xeric; 09-07-2013 at 12:28 AM..
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