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Old 09-06-2013, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Jeez. Caracas and Bangkok are latitudinally below the Sahara, too, but that doesn't make them Sub-Saharan. Most of Ethiopia lies east of the eastern-most meridian of the Sahara Desert. which is situated where the Sudan/Eritrea border meets the Red Sea.

Educated Ethiopians and Bantus do not consider themselves to be anthropologically related, because Ethiopians developed in a region east of the Sahara, isolated from the Bantus ans strongly influenced by Asiatic ancestry and probably of Asiatic origin. Everybody (except some posters to this thread) agree with that.

"Wilson et al. (2001), an autosomal DNA study based on cluster analysis that looked at a combined sample of Amhara and Oromo examining a single enzyme variants: drug metabolizing enzyme (DME) loci, found that 62% of Ethiopeans fall into the same cluster of Ashkenazi Jews, Norwegians and Armenians based on that gene. Only 24% of Ethiopians cluster with Bantus and Afro-Caribbeans, 8% with Papua New Guineans, and 6% with Chinese"
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v29/n3/full/ng761.html via
People of Ethiopia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please stop disseminating opinionated generalizations for which no basis exists.
Ethioipian culture is largely Asian by influence if not ultimate origin, and one of the typically Asiatic attributes of their culture is that they possess a literate history based on a written language. Due to long isolation, this is one of many significant differences, that they do not share with the people of Sub-Saharan Africa, which for the purposes of this discussion, means south of and isolated by the Sahara, not east of it. Ethiopians are not "isolated" by the geographical barrier of the Sahara, because they can easily communicate around the desert, by sea, which they have done for many millennia, greatly to their cultural and intellectual advantage..
Yes, most Ethiopians are linguistically, and culturally different from Bantus. But even if they do have Asiatic origin at some point (of course we all have African origin at some point too), they've been cut off from their Asian influences for a very long time. On the other hand, they live next to Bantu cultures and as isolated as they may be, at this point it's likely that they have far more interaction with their neighbors then with any distant Asian relations. Plus, the fact remains that they do live in a continent called Africa and in a region of Africa that most geographers call "sub-Saharan".
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Fort Collins, USA
1,473 posts, read 2,367,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiggs1 View Post
To be fair and to try and stabilize this "white vs black" theme of many of the threads on here, I would say that colonialism was not necessarily a bad thing for Africa. The period of European colonialism was just a continuation of what humans have been doing since the Ancient Egyptians, where you have certain groups of people in certain territories, trying to control other peoples and their territories. Race has nothing to do with this, it's just a thing about power.

It was not like black people were just minding their own business, and the evil white man came and took over their land. As the map that Motion showed retorts, there were empires on the African continent before the French and British Empires. Heck, there were empires on the African continent even before there was a political entity called Britain or France.

For example, the 19th century Zulu Kingdom in South Africa was an empire. It was an empire ran by the famous Shaka Zulu, and it was an empire feared and hated by the countries that it conquered. The Zulu empire wasn't different from the British empire in that it used its military force to dominate other territories.

But during the 1870s the Zulu-Anglo war occurred, and the British won. The British were just the most powerful empire at the time. If the Zulus had won the war, and they would have controlled their part of South Africa efficiently from the 1870s to the present day, I wouldn't think South Africa's political structure would be any different than what it is now.
Except that European colonialism in Africa was a last minute scramble for the remainder of the world that was only really complete at the end of the 19th century. Between 1880 and 1895 Europe went from controlling very little of Africa to controlling almost all of it. Then, 30 years later, colonialism started it's death march. So the Europeans were there just long enough to create a bunch of illogical (future) nation states.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:44 AM
 
6,554 posts, read 9,067,154 times
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Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post

Here is a good article on the subject by Dr. Clyde-Ahmad Winters of the University of Chicago http://olmec98.net/mandeWriting.pdf and his work is peer reviewed I should add.
Nobody takes Clyde Winters seriously. LOL LOL

Debunking Clyde Winters and his Mande Olmec Part 1 - YouTube

Last edited by Motion; 09-07-2013 at 12:54 AM..
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,421,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
You are trying to comment on something you clearly have no knowledge of. I am going to assume you did a quick Google search to try and prove your point. However, true research and understanding doesn’t come from by skimming the internet for opinions being asspoused by people who know as much as you do, which is little too nothing. To me, what is really telling is, you think the ONE written language you mention, which is Mende can be used to paint a picture of a continent that is the size of America, china, and parts of Europe combined. You are exteremely naïve and uninformed to say the least.

Do you even know the history of the Mende Language? I assure you I do, my family is from Wanjama in Sierra Leone, and I sir, am Mende. Kamara didn’t develop anything! What he did was, he took a written language that has existed for thousands of years and tried to popularize it, so that initiated and uninitiated people could use it. You see the same thing happen with the Vai script, however they are both derived from older Mande scripts, all of which are taught to initiates in the secret societies in West Africa; and they have been there before even Europeans knew how to write.

For example if you read the peer reviewed article by Dr. Konrad Tuchscherer from St. Johns University titled “The Lost Script of the Bagam”, he clearly shows that the scripts in Nigeria and Cameroon were being used LONG before Europeans EVER entered into Africa. Europeans first saw it in the early 1900s, but it predated their arrival. You can get that article on Jstor. The same is true of Nsibidi, which is another script, which is ancient and again predating Europeans. The fact of the matter is, you don’t know enough to have this conversation, so I don’t understand why you think that by arming yourself with quick Google Searches and no pre knowledge of the subject, you can even have this discussion. I even provided a website that has a audio presentation by a professor from the University of Houston, that attest to the antiquity of African Writing, which again is older than anywhere else in the world. Yet you, someone who is not a scholar on the subject, think some silly Google search can trump true scholarship from professors, are you serious? In fact there is writing found in a Grotto in the Sahara, the name of which escapes me, and the article on it is in French, but anyway, it is one of the earliest writing examples found in the world. The thing about it is, it seems to be related to the Vai and Mende scripts. The reason that is, is because the writing systems found in the Poro secret society is a Mande script and it is those scripts that Vai and Mende are based on. I should add Mande people originate in the Sahara, which is where the Grotto is located.

As to your last question about them being documented in ancient times, you have the writing they are descended from in the Sahara, in “grottos”. Here is a good article on the subject by Dr. Clyde-Ahmad Winters of the University of Chicago http://olmec98.net/mandeWriting.pdf and his work is peer reviewed I should add. What that means is, when a professor writes a article to be published in a journal, other professors look over the work, question anything they feel was not substantiated and the person can either remove that bit or better defend the work. Once that happens, the work is published in a journal. So there is little room for professors to lie or make up crap in these instances.

So to recap, Europe has no writing system of its own. Latin based writing comes from the Greek, the Greek writing comes from the Phoenicians and the Phoenician writing comes from the Egyptian (you can read the work by Dr. Martin Barnal, specifically Black Athena for more information on that). Africa on the other hand has hundreds of writing systems that are the oldest in the world.
Sierra Leone hosts some of the most backward tribes in all of Africa. The notion that any tribe there had a written language before European or Arab contact is laughable on its face.
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,421,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeric View Post
I've never known of civilization to be defined that way. Certainly a major component is lacking when there is no literacy but it's still a society or civilization (if you prefer).



Not Ghana, which was founded in 300 AD - 400 AD and was thriving when the Arabs first visited. Again, lack of literacy is a major hurdle, but that doesn't mean that past societies could not build cities, set up trade networks, and amass wealth.



It's generally accepted that iron metallurgy reached sub-Saharan Africa around 500 BC. Most historians think it was introduced from Egypt by way of Nubia. This technological advantage allowed the Bantu peoples to expand south from the Sahel.



Whenever you have groups of people living together with a common set of traditions, values, language, and way of life, you have a culture.
It's debatable whether Ghana was founded in 300AD. Since they didn't have a written language we have to rely on outside sources first mention comes around 8th century AD.
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:45 AM
 
Location: America
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Sierra Leone hosts some of the most backward tribes in all of Africa. The notion that any tribe there had a written language before European or Arab contact is laughable on its face.
*chuckle* right lol. You clearly don't know history. Let me guess, you read the New York Times and did some google searches and now you think you have it all figured out.

My friend, before Europeans were in Africa, Mande people had one of the largest Empires this earth has seen. Educate yourself, THEN come and speak to me. I have forgotten more knowledge about African history than you will ever retain in that mind of yours.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:03 AM
 
Location: America
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
It's debatable whether Ghana was founded in 300AD. Since they didn't have a written language we have to rely on outside sources first mention comes around 8th century AD.
There is nothing debated about Ancient Ghana, which isn't the name of that empire by the way. Its real name is Waghadou! You probably think present day Ghana is where the empire was located (it was in Mauritania/Senegal/Mali/Niger etc). There are books that chronicle the history of Ancient Ghana that were written by Africans in the early 13th Century AD called the Tarikhs and those are based on older books. I am sure you have never heard of any of this and are going on what you read on wikipedia, a site any know-nothing can contribute too. If you read the peer reviewed article written by Professors Susan MacIntosh and R.J. McIntosh who teach at Rice University, titled "Recent Archeological Research and Dates from West Africa" in the Journal of African HIstory, Volume 17, No3 on page 419 they clearly say that archaeological evidences shows the Waghadou civilization starts around 3,000 BC, that is contemporaneous with the start of Sumerian kingdom (which starts in 2800 BC) and Egypt (which starts around 3100 BC).

There is also Dr. Douglas Park has excavated in the region and he talks about one of the Fouta Kingdoms dating to about 500 BC here


Ancient West African Megacities - YouTube

But do you see the difference here? I am giving you facts and you are giving us your perverted fantasies. Every post I have provided here has been backed up by peer reviewed, world renowned academics, and you have given us your uneducated opinions. I hope no thinking person is taking you serious.

Lastly, you are not going to find extremely old cities south Mali, Niger, Mauritania because people modern day people had not reached that area yet. They were living in the Sahara at one point and left once it started to go dry.

I have also provided what actual professors have to say about writing in Africa and its antiquity. You can go back a page or so and see that.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:09 AM
 
Location: America
6,985 posts, read 15,478,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Nobody takes Clyde Winters seriously. LOL LOL


Debunking Clyde Winters and his Mande Olmec Part 1 - YouTube
Let me get this straight, you think someone who probably knows about as much on the history of Africa as you do (which apparently isn't much), makes a silly video and it refutes a PROFESSOR whose articles are PEER reviewed? Do you understand what the term "peer reviewed" means? Also the articles Dr. Winters site in his foot notes are also peer reviewed. I don't think someone like yourself, who clearly knows little to nothing about Africa, has the prerequisite knowledge to refute him. Silly videos wont do the trick. What will do it is, you providing peer reviewed articles from other academics that can show definitively that Dr. Winter's is wrong, and not only that, you will also have to provide proof that the articles that are in his foot notes are also wrong. A task I don't believe you are up too.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:12 AM
 
Location: America
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Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Depends on where, when and by whom. Living standards were raised in many colonies such as the Gold Coast and Senegal. In others like the the Congo it was an unmitigated disaster.
You don't know enough about African history to intelligently argue your point. I can say the sky is purple, doesn't make it true. Same way you spouting off non facts doesn't make it true. Now if you can provide some peer reviewed articles to prove your point THEN you can come back and talk to me.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:57 AM
 
Location: America
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Originally Posted by Kreutz View Post
It's amazing how people with no roots will latch on to whatever they can for some sense of legitimacy, but this a bold-faced lie.

Nubians were slave to the decidedly non-black Egyptians, and half-assedly stole what little culture they possessed from the Egyptians (see the laughable Nubian "pyramids" for example; essentially vaguely conical piles of rocks).




Most of these busts (like above) depict decidedly un-black features, such as longer noses and thin lips.


Ancient Egypt starts around 3100 BC with the conquering of a outside group into Egypt. The foreign kings name was Namar, and he was from the kingdom to the South called Ta-seti or Kush. This is happening around the city called Qustul in Northern Sudan, where archaeologist find Cemetery A, which predates ANY royal tombs in Egypt by at least 100 years. It shows tomb reliefs of a pharaoh wearing the crown of the South called the Hedjet, there are also mtu ntr inscriptions, which is what the Greeks would later term "Hieroglyphics". So we see in Northern Sudan, so called Nubia the first Pharaohs, the first instance of Mtu Ntr etc. It is these kings that would later push north, conquer what is today Egypt and spread Pharaonic civilization. Of course as time goes on, the kingdom evolves and takes on its own character naturally, but its beginnings are in Ta-seti or so called Nubia. But the same can be said of even Britain, it was conquered by Frankish people so the rulers were cousins to the people who would also rule France at one point. Yet the two kingdoms would take on their very on flavor, though they had common origins. Ta-seti/Kush/Nubia empire was also impressive, they have more pyramids than Egypt did, they had the biggest and most elaborate dafofas (temples) and the temples date to about 4,000 BC. They also had what one Greek who lived in Meroe (a city in ancient Kush) called one of the wonders of the world. It was this very elaborate underground bath house that people would go to, to be healed. It had these beautiful lion headed spouts etc. They just found it not to long ago actually.

For more info on the origins of Egypt you can read the work of Dr. Bruce Williams of University of Chicago, a good start is a article called "the middle nile valley from later prehistory to the end of the new kingdoms" by Dr. Geus and in there he references some of Dr. Bruce Williams work. Dr. Williams is one of the professors who first found the Nubian link that shows where ancient Egyptian culture etc evolved out of. You can see a video of him here [vimeo]44253685[/vimeo]
Conversations on Ancient Nubia with the Distinguished Nubiologist, Dr. Bruce Williams on Vimeo a little messy, but he explains that so called Nubia is the origin of the Kingdom.


Now, as to the origins of Egypt, what did people who lived back then, who may not have been Egyptians themselves, but studied there, have to say about what was believed by the ancient egyptians and others to be the origin? Well lets takes the words of the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, who lived in 60 to 30 B.C. "They say also that the Egyptians are colonist sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony.... Many other things are also told by them concerning their own antiquity and the colony which they sent out that became the Egyptians, but about this there is no special need of our writing anything". You can find that in the book titled "Library of Histories" by Diodorus Siculus in Book III, Chapter 3. Let me clarify something too, The term "ethiopian" does not refer to present day Ehtiopians. Ethiop is a Greek word which means "burnt face" and was used in Greek times to denote anyone of black skin. The present day Ethiopia doesn't get that name until the early 1900s CE. Anyway, what is also interesting to note that, here is a European traveller i.e. Diodorus Siculus saying that Egypt was created by 'blacks' which stands to reason ancient egyptians were also black, doesn't take rocket science to figure that one out. Diodorus Siculus also makes the statement that mtu ntr or so called hieroglyphics originates with the "ethiopians" i.e. Ku****es and here is the quote:

“For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special attention which
they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a similar nature are Ethiopian
practices, while the shapes of their statues and the forms of their letters are
Ethiopian; for of the two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is
known as "popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called
"sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn it from their
fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but among the Ethiopians
everyone uses these forms of letters. Furthermore, the orders of the priests, they
maintain, have much the same position among both peoples; for all are clean who
are engaged in the service of the gods, keeping themselves shaven, like the
Egyptian priests, and having the same dress and form of staff, which is shaped
like a plough and is carried by their kings, who wear high felt hats which end in a
knob at the top and are circled by the serpents which they call asps.”

you can find that in Book III and Chapter 3 of Siculus' book "Library of Histories". What is interesting to note is, the finding of Dr. William's helps to solidify those claims.

As to "black features" thats a absurd/silly argument to make. I am going to assume you have never been to Africa in your life. There are people with straight noses and thin lips with jet black skin. I myself have two cousin who fit that description and we are West Africans. This variety in look can be found from Sierra Leone, to Niger, to Mali, Cameroon, Rwanda and on and on it goes. There is no one way to look African, and if you knew anything about Africa, you would know that. Your argument is one based on fantasy, not reality.

Lastly, I am going to leave you with the words of a egyptian professor on who and what the ancient egyptians were


Egyptians are African Nubian.mp4 - YouTube

This is in a play list, i suggest you watch the other videos. They have comments by actual researchers, instead of common people with no knowledge of history trying to make up facts that just dont exist.
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