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Old 10-13-2013, 09:04 PM
 
6,552 posts, read 9,067,154 times
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Another critique of Van Sertima's work. Checkout the video.


Amazon.com: Jaime Andres Pretell "salsassin"'s review of Early America Revisited

 
Old 10-14-2013, 01:44 AM
 
219 posts, read 721,323 times
Reputation: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
One of Van Sertima's biggest problems was the timeline issue.
That's a very childish way to view a man whose research has NO PRECEDENT. In other words everything that we know about this situation came from this man's 7 years of complete isolation and painstaking research. So he had to readjust his dates by a century or two (we are talking about a period over 3,000 years ago), so everything else just goes down the drain right? I guess "Egyptology" must also be a load of crock, especially since most of Egyptologist have yet to reverse certain theories in light of geological studies (radio carbon dating) proving indisputably that the Sphinx is THOUSANDS of years older then the civilization itself.

Quote:
Van Sertima believes the Africans among the Olmecs were the Nubians of the 25th dynasty of Egypt. These Nubians ruled Egypt starting around 760 BC.
A king of that legendary 25th Dynasty (Taharqa) has also been found to have conquered Spain which is right around the bend from West Africa:

Quote:
In 700 B.C during the 25 dynasty in Egypt, when the Ethiopian Warrior-Prince Taharka was a young general, but before he had been ceded the throne by his uncle Shabataka. It is this same Taharka (referred to in early Spanish chronicles as Tarraco) that led a garrison into Spain and invaded it during this period. There is clear and indisputable reference to this in a manuscript by Florian de Ocampo, Cronica General published in Medina del Campo in 1553. The name of the invading general is given as Tarraco. He is not only identified as head of the Ethiopian army. The reference is more specific. It says he was later to become a king of Egypt.

The name, the period, the historical fact of his generalship and his later kingship of Egypt, his Ethiopian origin and the wide-ranging trade and exploration of the Ethiopian in this period, all attest to the validity of this reference.

Also the most persuasive of all is the fact that cartouches of the Upper Egyptian kings of this period have been found in Spain! Evidence of such cartouches may be found in the journal of the Epigraphic Society (Vol. 7, No. 171-April 1971)[Golden Age of the Moor by Ivan Van Sermita]
or you might also want to read:

Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1983, p.52



Quote:
Even Clyde Winters acknowledges this timeline issue which is why he believes the Olmec heads represent west African Mande people who came later,anyway...
You see now you're just criticizing because you feel obligated for reason to debunk a fact that you nothing about. You are jumping all over the damn place like you're panicking or some ****. Why not acknowledge the fact that you have any talking point rebuttal to most of my points. Sertima proved through dozens of categories that there were two independent migrations to America from Africa. The first being the Egypto-Nubian era and the second being the Mande voyages. It is even recorded that Mansa Musa's (ruler of Mali/the richest man of all time) brother sailed to America. On his legendary pilgrimage to Mecca a conversation between Mansa Musa and an Arab merchant revealed that Mansa Musa's brother set sail with a FLEET to see if land was on the other side of the water and never returned.

Before you go any further here you go:

Quote:
Reply to My Critics

by Ivan Van Sertima

An attack on my thesis that Africans made contact with America before Columbus in two major pre-Christian periods (circa 1200 b.c. and circa 800 b.c.) in addition to the Mandingo contact period (1310/1311 A.D.) has been circulated in advance to hundreds of subscribers to a journal, Current Anthropology. Copies of this attack by Bernard de Montellano, Warren Barbour and Gabriel Haslip-Viera were also sent out to African-American scholars, some of whom were cited in the attack, dishonestly titled "Van Sertima’s Afrocentricity and the Olmecs." The title’s emphasis is meant to suggest that all revisions of African history by so-called "Blacks" belong to a common school, radiate from a common brain, and are cast in the same "racialist" hue and mode. This circular, which precedes my new book, REPLY TO MY CRITICS (scheduled to appear in Sept), seeks to highlight the brazen and malicious lies, slanders and misrepresentations that characterize this attack. Let it be noted that I was invited to respond to this attack but was forced to withdraw. The editor, after verbally agreeing that I could reprint my commentary, after the issue of the Journal appeared, did a dramatic about-turn when pressed to sign a written agreement to back up his word. He wrote that I could only reprint my "commentary" (15 pages) if I also reprinted the attack on me (50 pages) since "they form a unit." To feel the full absurdity of this, just imagine the Jewish Defense League being forced to republish an extended Nazi-type attack on their positions in order to republish a brief response to such a slanderous attack.

LIE ONE: - "Van Sertima’s expedition allegedly sailed or drifted westward to the Gulf of Mexico where it came in contact with inferior Olmecs. These individuals created Olmec civilization." - De Montellano, Barbour and Haslip-Viera.

THE TRUTH: As far back as 1976, I made my position on this matter very clear. I never said that Africans created or founded American civilization. I said they made contact and all significant contact between two peoples lead to influences. "I think it is necessary to make it clear - since partisan and ethnocentric scholarship seems to be the order of the day - that the emergence of the Negroid face, which the archeological and cultural data overwhelmingly confirm, in no way presupposes the lack of a native originality, the absence of other influences or the automatic eclipse of other faces"-p. 147 of "They Came Before Columbus." See also Journal of African Civilizations, Vol 8, No. 2, 1986 "I cannot subscribe to the notion that civilization suddenly dropped onto the American earth from the Egyptian heaven."

LIE TWO: None of the early Egyptians and Nubians looked like Negroes. "They have long, narrow noses..." "Short, flat noses are confined to the West African ancestors of African-Americans." Again, "there is no evidence that ancient Nubians ever braided their hair. This style comes from colonial and modern Ethiopia."

THE TRUTH: Narrow noses have been found among millions of pure-blooded Africans. We can see this among the Elongated and Nilotic types. My critics know nothing about the variants of Africa, ancient or modern. All the six main variants of the African have been found in the Egyptian and Nubian graves. For examples of ancient braided Nubian hair, see Frank Snowden’s "Before Color Prejudice, " As for Egypto-Nubians only having narrow noses, see Egyptian pharaohs in Vol 10 and 12 of the JAC and major Nubian pharaohs in Peggy Bertram’s essay (JAC, Vol.12) -Ushanaru, Plate 8, p 173; Taharka as the god Amun from Kawa Temples, Plate 9, p. 173; Shabaka, Plate 12, p. 176. Tanwetamani, Plate 16, p. 180. To say that these are narrow noses is to exhibit a colossal ignorance of African types in ancient Egypt and Nubia. The agenda behind this is to bolster their case that they could not have been models for any of the Olmec stone heads.

LIE THREE; Modern Egyptians look exactly as they did thousands of years ago. The composition of the Egyptian has not changed over the last 5000 years. Invasions by the Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Arabs and Romans left them looking the same today as in the dawn of history.

THE TRUTH: This is a hasty misreading of the work of scholars like A.C. Berry, R. J. Berry and Ucko who point out that there is a remarkable degree of homogeneity in this area for 5000 years. What a superficial reading of this fails to note is that the period ends with the close of the native dynasties BEFORE the invasions of the Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman and Arab foreigners

LIE FOUR: Faced with the startlingly Negroid features of some of the Olmec stone heads, my critics try 4 ways out: (a) They are "spitting images of the native;" (b) they appear dark because some of them were carved out of dark volcanic stone; (c) some were made of white basalt which turned dark over time; (d) ancient Egyptians and Nubians were remote in physiognomy from sub-Saharan Negroes and none of them could have been models for any of the "Negro-looking" heads. Having said all that, they then claim that "races are not linked to specific physiognomic traits."

THE TRUTH: No need to shoot them down on this. They turned the gun on themselves.

LIE FIVE: Nothing African has been found in any archeological excavation in the New World.

THE TRUTH: In the drier centers of the Olmec world - at Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban - the Polish craniologist, Andrez Wiercinski, found indisputable evidence of an African presence. The many traits analyzed in these Olmec sites indicated individuals with Negroid traits predominating but with an admixture of other racial traits. This is what I have said. The work of A. Vargas Guadarrama is an important reinforcement of Wiercinski’s study. He found that the skulls he examined at Tlatilco, which Wiercinski had classified as Negroid, were "radically different" from other skulls on the site, bearing indisputable similarities to skulls in West Africa and Egypt.

LIE SIX: Van Sertima presents no evidence that a New World cotton (gossypium hirsutum var. punctatum) was transferred from Guinea to the Cape Verde in 1462 by the Portuguese and there is no hard proof that West Africans made a round trip to America before Columbus.

THE TRUTH: I cited evidence in 12 categories to establish Mandingo voyages to the New World circa1310/1311 A.D. This included eyewitness reports from nearly a dozen Europeans, even Columbus himself, metallurgical, linguistic, botanical, navigational, oceanographic, skeletal, epigraphic, cartographic, oral, documented and iconographic evidence. With regard to New World cotton in Africa before 1462, Stephens spoke in two tongues to pacify isolationist colleagues.

LIE SEVEN: My critics claim that I said the bottle gourd came in with Old World voyagers.

THE TRUTH: I was at pains to point out that this is ONE PLANT THAT COULD DRIFT TO AMERICA WITHOUT THE LOSS OF SEED VIABILITY. "Bottle gourds got caught in the pull of currents from the African coast and drifted to America across the Atlantic. Thomas Whitaker and G.F. Carter showed that these gourds are capable of floating in seawater for 7 months without loss of seed viability" - "They Came Before Columbus, " 204. They indulge in an even more vicious dishonesty with regard to cotton, claiming that I said "Old World cottons came into America with a fleet of Nubians circa 700 B.C." I never linked cotton transfer to Nubian contact.

LIE EIGHT: My critics admit "we cannot unequivocally date the heads" but they single out one which they say Ann Cyphers confidently dated about 1011 B.C. Note the date! This is 200 years AFTER the Egyptian contact period c. 1200 B.C. Yet they claim that the dating of this one head proves "Negro-looking heads" were being carved, mutilated, and buried prior to 1200 B.C.

THE TRUTH: The stone heads could not have been buried before they were carved.

LIE NINE: Egyptians stopped building pyramids "thousands of years" before 1200 B.C. No relationship whatever exists between Old World/New World pyramids.

THE TRUTH: Enormous obelisks, calling for the same complex engineering skills of the pyramid age were built at Karnak as late as 1295 B.C. A pyramid was also built as Dashur circa 1700 B.C. Bart Jordan, the mathematical child prodigy, to whom Einstein granted special audience, established startling coincidences between Old World and New World pyramids. He agrees with me that "The overwhelming incidence of coincidence argues overwhelmingly against a mere coincidence."

LIE TEN: My critics claim that I have trampled upon the self-respect and self-esteem of native Americans and they have come forward to champion their cause.

THE TRUTH: My people (for I am part Macusi and part African) would be horrified to have, as champions of our cause, De Montellano, Barbour, and Haslip-Viera, who disgrace us with the charge that "native Americans would have sacrificed and eaten the Africans if they came."
 
Old 10-14-2013, 01:49 AM
 
219 posts, read 721,323 times
Reputation: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Another critique of Van Sertima's work. Checkout the video.


Amazon.com: Jaime Andres Pretell "salsassin"'s review of Early America Revisited
No Salsassin is a proven liar and I know that from personal experience. Youtube took down those videos that he made where he deceived S.O.Y. Keita and misconstrued his words.
 
Old 10-18-2013, 12:17 AM
 
Location: LA, CA/ In This Time and Place
5,433 posts, read 3,502,646 times
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Interesting thread and subject manner. History that is underrated.
 
Old 10-18-2013, 02:35 PM
 
5,180 posts, read 4,672,714 times
Reputation: 1551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
Some Meso-American experts respond to Ivan Van Sertima.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Honestly, you are no longer acting like an African but now you are acting like a six letter word that starts with an "N" and ends with an "r".
Now are you cats starting to see the folly of busting crackhead, nubian olmec self esteem?

Its like giving food to a litter of rats who would return your kindness by eating you out of house and home, and devouring your children.

Nothing good ever comes out of enabling them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerJAX View Post
How are Afro-centric views of Egypt any superior than Euro-centric/White Supremicist ones? Do you get some sort of ride out of Ancient Egyptians being "Black"? Some of the posts in this thread are nothing more than a fallacious exercise in racial empowerment and racialism. It took a couple of centuries to purge racism and racialism from cultural and historical studies in academia, but here we have you clowns engaging in it with glee.
The only marginally good thing about these kind of afronut rantings is that the people get to see what subsidizing the dregs and losers of society inevitably leads to.
 
Old 10-18-2013, 06:56 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,300 posts, read 10,490,783 times
Reputation: 3541
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Now are you cats starting to see the folly of busting crackhead, nubian olmec self esteem?

Its like giving food to a litter of rats who would return your kindness by eating you out of house and home, and devouring your children.

Nothing good ever comes out of enabling them.



The only marginally good thing about these kind of afronut rantings is that the people get to see what subsidizing the dregs and losers of society inevitably leads to.

So judging from your rant, blacks or anyone else should continue to believe the lies that have been told over and over again just so those terrible black people might quit their destructive ways and have a little self esteem instead?
 
Old 10-18-2013, 07:25 PM
 
219 posts, read 721,323 times
Reputation: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Now are you cats starting to see the folly of busting crackhead, nubian olmec self esteem?

Its like giving food to a litter of rats who would return your kindness by eating you out of house and home, and devouring your children.

Nothing good ever comes out of enabling them.

The only marginally good thing about these kind of afronut rantings is that the people get to see what subsidizing the dregs and losers of society inevitably leads to.
 
Old 10-18-2013, 07:27 PM
 
219 posts, read 721,323 times
Reputation: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
So judging from your rant, blacks or anyone else should continue to believe the lies that have been told over and over again just so those terrible black people might quit their destructive ways and have a little self esteem instead?
Basically:

 
Old 10-20-2013, 12:51 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,509,042 times
Reputation: 6752
1. The Egyptians were not "black." They are"blacker" now due to the Arab slave trade. We are dealing with this on another thread as a separate issue.

]http://www.city-data.com/forum/africa/1973515-king-tut-european-dna-debunked-lets.html

2. The original "stone masonry settlements of Tichitt Walta are not he ones being shown here. These are medieval. The originals, which wereabandoned on 500 B.C. were simple structures of the "compound" style, similar to a Zulu house.

3. There is no such thing as proto-Manding writing. It is nonsense from con-artist Clyde Winters. It simply does not exist.

4. The Olmecs were Amerind, and obviously so. The headsdon't even look "black," as they have epicantic eyefolds.

[youtube]HI4i95s3jOQ[/youtube

Debunking "Black Olmec" in 23 Seconds - YouTube


5. It is shocking that the crank theories of MichalTellinger are being cited as "evidence" of something. Tellinger is anancient alien idiot who tries to make something out of the remains of stonekraals. Since South Africa was khoisan until relatively modern times, it wouldnot have been the ancestors of modern Africans that had anything going on down there anyway.

6. There is more nonsense on this thread than you can shakea stick at.
 
Old 10-22-2013, 06:44 PM
 
5,180 posts, read 4,672,714 times
Reputation: 1551
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
So judging from your rant, blacks or anyone else should continue to believe the lies that have been told over and over again just so those terrible black people might quit their destructive ways and have a little self esteem instead?
What's wrecking you and your ilk is the false belief that you're entitled to get a trophy for being a lazy bump on a log.

And this belief in being entitled to other people's culture and contributions is what's fueling obscenely high incarceration rates.

But at least you guys are not totally destructive, your ilk keeps the welfare and criminal justice workforce gainfully employed.

Again fellow Americans I strongly urge you to rethink the wisdom of subsidizing and enabling berserk savages who would reward your guilty conscience by slitting your throats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
I guess there really is a race war going on now!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unbreakable View Post
That's probably because 90% of the businesses in that area of LA were 't Korean or white owned. You should actually read up on the incident of why Koreans were a main target in that riot.
Remember, you git the gubmint you deserve.

Last edited by kovert; 10-22-2013 at 06:58 PM..
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