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Old 07-03-2017, 06:26 PM
 
20,248 posts, read 11,222,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Oh and by the way the "call and response" elements of TRUE country music is uncanny, as are the "rude" themes which are to be found in blues, calypso and other musics of Afro Americas. Country music actually does have a fan base in the Caribbean and Africa. Its connection to nooses and Dylan Roof types prevents AAs from seeing the connection.
The main difference between country and blues is the presence or absence of steel guitar and bass guitar. Otherwise, they are interchangeable.
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Old 07-03-2017, 07:19 PM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,666,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
In fact I am saying exactly that, which is why I also cite the plight of the white working class of the UK< who arguably underwent similar levels of social exclusion as have blacks who were present in the USA prior to 1970. The ghetto didn't arise from some defect of black Americans. It was created by the larger society and unfortunately too many continue to suffer the consequences even today.

And I use it to refute any argument that Mexicans in Chicago's ghettoes are not as prone to social pathologies, so that we can lay the problems of the inner city by blaming those who were themselves victims of one of the most cruel forms of social control in the Americas. I also use this to refute those who will point to poor Caribbean/African people who will run dollar vans or livery services rather than succumbing to hopelessness.

The reality is that the impoverished whites who migrated North benefitted from the GI Bill and other post WWII programs which specifically excluded blacks. Another cruel fate was just as blacks began to enter into better paying jobs in the industrial sectors of the Midwest those jobs were shifted to the suburbs, then to the non unionized South (in regions where the black population was small) before being shipped overseas or automated.

Yes farming mechanization did eliminate many jobs but it is indeed a fact that white employers still didn't want to lose their labor force, or to see them empowered out of a notion of better opportunities elsewhere. It isn't as if they didn't have other uses for labor and that they didn't want such labor to be as cheap as possible. They happily told tales of all of the problems of the Chicago Southside or of Harlem. Negating of course to admit that many blacks did indeed eventually establish themselves and that blacks in the Midwest and the Northeast were considerably better off than those who remained in the South, despite the urban blight and oppression that they encountered.


Remember that even though large numbers left the South that region remained the home of the largest black populations.

Often times we focus on the blacks who left the South and what their lives became in the Northeast, Midwest and in CA. We often forget about those blacks who never left the South.
Many white farmers themselves went out of business. Mechanization meant less land was needed to produce much more food, and as a result of lot of farms in the Eastern states (including the South) reverted back to forests and this is still true today. A poor white farmer would have benefitted from the GI bill (as would their communities) in ways blacks at that time could not. So a big part of black people leaving the South was the dry up of agricultural jobs (they weren't allowed to do anything else besides domestic work).

Keep in mind my family is from this background, and I still have family in the South, so I certainly do not forget the Blacks who forget live in the South and I know the causes of the migration Northward in ways that those who don't have Southern connections won't.

And it wasn't cruel fate. The government pushed industrial jobs out of big cities to the suburbs. Players like Robert Moses decided NYC should be for business, and NJ should have industry. The Port Authority felt the same, and there were directives from the federal government to do this nationally, as they felt too much industrial production in the Northeast and Midwest made the national vulnerable post WW2 to a strategic nuclear attack. So they told companies to relocate to the suburbs and non union parts of the South.
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:13 AM
 
178 posts, read 84,948 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Funny thing that is the kora, morphed into the banjo and in 2017 most will consider it to be a "white" instrument.

OK I know that Billybob Joe just slammed down the banjo since he heard that it was a "jungle bunny" instrument and stopped eating fried chicken/catfish and greens and so much that is Southern. Poor Billybob doesn't know what to do as so much that he thinks is culturally his actually emerged when Scots Irish and African indentured peoples work side by side on 17th C plantations in VA and MD.


Ask blacks of the Americas about African culture and they reduce it to dancing and music. That is because we know nothing about other aspects of the culture. This was the only space that African culture was allowed to survive and so much remains that is African, and in fact this is also why Africans consume the cultures of the Caribbean, Latin America, and Black America so avidly as it just "Africa returning home".


The mistake that we make is when we reduce African culture to this, run off to Africa and then encounter a rude shock, especially in "Village Africa".

Oh and by the way the "call and response" elements of TRUE country music is uncanny, as are the "rude" themes which are to be found in blues, calypso and other musics of Afro Americas. Country music actually does have a fan base in the Caribbean and Africa. Its connection to nooses and Dylan Roof types prevents AAs from seeing the connection.
Yes I am aware of this but I was just refering to the statement that culturally African Americans are exactly the same..
I should have added that Africans that think this after coming to America would think we all exactly the same because on the surface and in general company of society we are but in more private and intimate environments is where you see the differences.
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:09 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,949,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
And it wasn't cruel fate. The government pushed industrial jobs out of big cities to the suburbs. Players like Robert Moses decided NYC should be for business, and NJ should have industry. The Port Authority felt the same, and there were directives from the federal government to do this nationally, as they felt too much industrial production in the Northeast and Midwest made the national vulnerable post WW2 to a strategic nuclear attack. So they told companies to relocate to the suburbs and non union parts of the South.
I will suggest to you that it was a cruel fate. Blacks heading North into urban centers just as those jobs were being taken out of those areas, and sent to the suburbs, or into parts of the South with low black populations. Then the GI Bill and FHA programs, all of which conspired to create the new urban ghetto, the biggest concentration of black poverty that the USA had ever seen.

I know that you aren't so nave as to think that it wasn't deliberate policy to locate industrial jobs in places where blacks didn't live and then to enact policies to prevent blacks from moving there for employment.

I think that some one who moved from the Mississippi Delta to Chicago could have managed to move a few miles to the suburbs where these jobs were trasnferred to. But they couldn't because of the various informal arrangements which enforced segregation. You do know that blacks weren't allowed to live in those Levittown developments.

It was also state policy in the South to determine where factories were located. Given the traditions of the South blacks weren't about to move to some area with the "sunset" traditions.

So yes it was a cruel fate, one determined by public policy, and set up to benefit the white working class.
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:15 AM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,949,240 times
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Originally Posted by SenseSoCommon View Post
Yes I am aware of this but I was just refering to the statement that culturally African Americans are exactly the same..
I should have added that Africans that think this after coming to America would think we all exactly the same because on the surface and in general company of society we are but in more private and intimate environments is where you see the differences.
Outside of the USA it is always amazing how fast white Americans run to black Americans when they are the only Americans around.

Not to say that AAs and whites are the same, because clearly they aren't. AAs have a distinct range of styles and characteristics that mark them as an ethno-racial group. But they are cut out of that American tapestry and have contributed in a HUGE way to determining what being American is.

Billy Bob can have a temper tantrum but at the end of the day just as blues and country are related so too are the blacks and whites of the South. And many will claim, and with great justification too, that the South is the USA's cultural heartland. That is where the various groups first became "American".

The cities of the northeast still remain connected to an immigrant origin, and ethnicity becomes very important. Ditto for the Midwest, though to a lesser degree.
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:17 AM
 
20,248 posts, read 11,222,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Outside of the USA it is always amazing how fast white Americans run to black Americans when they are the only Americans around.

Not to say that AAs and whites are the same, because clearly they aren't. AAs have a distinct range of styles and characteristics that mark them as an ethno-racial group. But they are cut out of that American tapestry and have contributed in a HUGE way to determining what being American is.

Billy Bob can have a temper tantrum but at the end of the day just as blues and country are related so too are the blacks and whites of the South. And many will claim, and with great justification too, that the South is the USA's cultural heartland. That is where the various groups first became "American".

The cities of the northeast still remain connected to an immigrant origin, and ethnicity becomes very important. Ditto for the Midwest, though to a lesser degree.
This is true.
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Old 07-04-2017, 01:04 PM
 
178 posts, read 84,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I will suggest to you that it was a cruel fate. Blacks heading North into urban centers just as those jobs were being taken out of those areas, and sent to the suburbs, or into parts of the South with low black populations. Then the GI Bill and FHA programs, all of which conspired to create the new urban ghetto, the biggest concentration of black poverty that the USA had ever seen.

I know that you aren't so nave as to think that it wasn't deliberate policy to locate industrial jobs in places where blacks didn't live and then to enact policies to prevent blacks from moving there for employment.

I think that some one who moved from the Mississippi Delta to Chicago could have managed to move a few miles to the suburbs where these jobs were trasnferred to. But they couldn't because of the various informal arrangements which enforced segregation. You do know that blacks weren't allowed to live in those Levittown developments.

It was also state policy in the South to determine where factories were located. Given the traditions of the South blacks weren't about to move to some area with the "sunset" traditions.

So yes it was a cruel fate, one determined by public policy, and set up to benefit the white working class.
Agreed
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Old 07-05-2017, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Middle of the Pacific Ocean
11,794 posts, read 6,331,998 times
Reputation: 11602
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Outside of the USA it is always amazing how fast white Americans run to black Americans when they are the only Americans around.

Not to say that AAs and whites are the same, because clearly they aren't. AAs have a distinct range of styles and characteristics that mark them as an ethno-racial group. But they are cut out of that American tapestry and have contributed in a HUGE way to determining what being American is.

Billy Bob can have a temper tantrum but at the end of the day just as blues and country are related so too are the blacks and whites of the South. And many will claim, and with great justification too, that the South is the USA's cultural heartland. That is where the various groups first became "American".

The cities of the northeast still remain connected to an immigrant origin, and ethnicity becomes very important. Ditto for the Midwest, though to a lesser degree.
I try to avoid other Americans when I'm abroad as I'm interested in meeting people from foreign cultures, etc. Not to mention that I have been put off by the attitudes displayed by many traveling Americans that I've encountered.
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Old 07-05-2017, 11:53 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,949,240 times
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
I try to avoid other Americans when I'm abroad as I'm interested in meeting people from foreign cultures, etc. Not to mention that I have been put off by the attitudes displayed by many traveling Americans that I've encountered.
That is true and interesting enough some black Americans can be just as parochial as their white counterparts. If it weren't for racism and segregation there wouldn't be any difference between black and white Americans.
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Old 07-06-2017, 05:29 AM
 
20,248 posts, read 11,222,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
That is true and interesting enough some black Americans can be just as parochial as their white counterparts. If it weren't for racism and segregation there wouldn't be any difference between black and white Americans.
Which is what would be expected, after being cheek-and-jowl for 397 years.
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