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Old 08-03-2017, 07:32 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 4,426,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Reminds me of a friend of mine in Honolulu, a woman of Japanese descent, who finally got to take a trip back to the "mother country." She had always considered herself very "Japanese," but after returning from Japan, she admitted she really wasn't very Japanese at all.

And then, my daughter had a friend who had left Japan only for high school and college...and learned even she could not "go back home again."
He created a straw man argument

My Point isn't to seek "approval"

I never said black Americans aren't culturally Americans.

I made specific points about specific things that still haven't been directly replied to.
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Old 08-04-2017, 03:31 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,660,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
Caribny is on point. There ARE SOME AAs who run-off to Africa, call themselves "African" and say they are "going back home"
and don't have a clue. The latest and prime example being Colin Kaepernick.(At least he went to Egypt where he would blend
in.) Africans find it funny and hilarious when AAs especially those who are almost white talk "Black" "Black" "Black" . I know,
because this is exactly what they told me.

I was reading a book where one of the Afro-centric type AAs went to Ghana, on the streets, some Ghanaians called out:
"Black American?, Jamaican? Rasta? "Welcome Obruni brother and sister! " When she found out that Obruni ment "White"
she got mad. I can imagine what they REALLY thought about Colin Kaepernick behind his back. From what I read, Obruni
means person from beyond the horizon. What that boils down to is that an Obruni is not one of the locals in cultural terms.

In Ghana, this same lady asked "why do you call me white? I certainly was not considered white in America" The answer was "You talk like a white person, you dress like a white person. "Do you speak Fante?" "No" "Hmm" well then you are
Obruni."

This is the trap of American racialized thinking, she is thinking racially, the African is thinking culturally and racially especially if they see someone like Colin Kaepernick. I understand that this whole thing is one Black American reaction against racism and a sense of marginalization, but this means nothing to blacks in majority black societies. Coming to Ghana with American racial baggage.


They have a superficial and romantic notion of what they think 'African" means probably from wearing a robe and beating
a drum or reading a book. I think Africans would have more respect if some Diaspora Blacks just be themselves around
Africans and let the differences and commonalities come out naturally. Don't try to pretend something you are not and
have no real clue about. This is failure to acculturate.
I have a friend who has been teaching in the Congo for about a year, all while learning French and Lingala, one of the Congolese languages.

Not every African American who goes to Africa is a football player or guy hanging out at the deli, and part of the reason CaribNY's comments are the way they are is he has known mostly working class AAs who have little to no knowledge of the world 5 miles outside their home. But that isn't all AAs.

You do have AAs who have gone to various places in Africa for professional/academic/business reasons, and this is a very different dynamic.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:46 AM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,536 posts, read 2,034,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
Americans need to understand the NON-AMERICAN viewpoint. Americans run around and say they are Irish-American, Italian-American, African-American. We know what WE mean when we say that we imply DESCENT. INDIGENOUS people in Ireland,
Italy and Africa see NOTHING OR VERY LITTLE that is Irish, Italian or African about them.

They see AMERICANS. Americans take this ancestry thing and LIMIT IT TO SUPERFICIAL DESCENT. Culture gets left out, that
is the problem. A nationality goes DEEPER THAN DESCENT it involves CULTURE. The people are looking at things culturally.

Before one goes to a country one needs to study that country and find out how he/she will be received. I understand why
some Black Americans feel the need to go "home" to Africa. Alienated, marginalized, made to feel like aliens in their own
country due to racism and rejection. But if someone goes to Africa, they need to get real about what they will encounter.

We can debate about labels and what nationality means what to who but at the end of the day overseas. Americans will be viewed as Americans. I am specifically talking about some AAs who go to Africa with a naive and unrealistic attitude, thinking just because they are
black, they will be automatically accepted.

Excellent points.

As a black-American, I've realized that this nation is as much ours as anyone else's. We make the mistake of conceding our ground and trying to retreat to Africa when things get rough here. Most of us have families that have been here for 10+ generations. Our "African-ness" in it's purest form was lost long ago. We are uniquely American with a combination of European and West/Central African values that have been combined to form the basis of what IS American culture. It's OK for us to visit and learn about the unique cultures but we shouldn't view it as home and expect the locals to see us as long lost family. Instead we should take it as an opportunity to learn about our ancestors and the people they descended from.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:18 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
.
Your post is basically saying African and African Americans should keep the ignorance of each other, pass back and forth stereotypes which the central point is to ironically express the same racist idea.
I am saying no such thing. I am saying that as they learn more about each other they should respect the fact that 200+ years of separation means that we have people who are now quite different from each other. This isn't to say that there aren't residual Africanisms practiced daily by black Americans (surely the role of music and dancing is definitely African, as is the very active participation in worship). But a black American will never be an African. A black American should NOT aspire to be an African nor be ridiculed by Africans because he isn't.

Black Americans also need to understand that some one who was born in a majority black society will also think differently' "Blackness" will not be the defining identity because every one is black. Sensitivity to racism propagated by whites will also be less of an issue because, prior to arriving in North America or Europe, it was of minimal importance. So while black Americans will want to build an entire identity based on skin color an African will scoff at that.

Similarly Africans need to understand a number of things.

1. Most black Americans are not uneducated ghetto people even if this is what whites might want them to believe. In fact more than 30% of black Americans have household income higher than the median household income of white Americans. Black women in fact are fast catching up to white men in college attainment.

2. Culture evolves over time so it is totally nonsensical to arrive in the USA at a time when opportunities for blacks are now greatly better than they were even as recently as 30 years ago, and then express contempt at the condition of so many blacks. They need to admit that it was these same blacks who struggled and paved the way for even their right to arrive in the USA as immigrants, to attend some of the best universities and to have opportunities to develop decent careers. Clearly a legacy of racial abuse has damaged the psyche of sections of the black American population rendering them less able to move forward and more sensitive to micro-aggressions from whites than a black immigrant might be.

3. Africans should also cease to insult themselves by comparing what is a highly selective immigrant group, the MOST educated group in the USA with inner city blacks. One need only go to France to see that if immigration of Africans to the USA was less selective and more poorly educated people arrived then Africans would be less successful.

In fact African immigrants to the USA are NOT that successful, given that they are so educated. Their median household incomes are LOWER than for whites and Asians who are LESS educated. Africans need to ask themselves why has their educational success not translated into economic success. They do only marginally better than do Caribbean black immigrants a considerably LESS educated group. So yes it turns out that racism is in fact real.

So let us start here instead of fooling yourself that you are some African who got lost trying to find your way home. Your home is the USA, NOT Africa! And in fact this is the belief system of most black Americans, few of whom display any real interest in Africa or Africans.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:22 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
The irony I am American, and I don't think CaribNY is but that irrelevant.

.
I am just a black man who has lived in the USA for 35 years, ironically longer than have most black Americans, whose median age is in the low 30s. So yes I do know about life in the USA as a black man. I have also been to Africa so know that a black Caribbean, black Latin American, and even MORE a black American "playing African" is ridiculous. Have pride in the rich culture that black Americans have developed and the fact that your struggle has made your group role models for many others, including some Africans (South Africans being an example).
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:30 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
IYou do have AAs who have gone to various places in Africa for professional/academic/business reasons, and this is a very different dynamic.
Its interesting that the fake Africans almost always have college degrees, often from the Ivy League. I really don't think that Jamal from the projects has any interest in Africa and in fact usually internalizes some of the most racist Tarzan notions of that continent that even most have abandoned. So no it has nothing to do with "working class American blacks".


Mr. Man in fact my connection to black Americans is almost exclusively with highly educated MBAs, professionals and business owners. These are my clients. And yes I am as Ivy League as you boast that you are, except that I don't have to fling that in with every New York post that I make.

One thing that you with your West Indian hating self will never understand is that one cannot draw a line and determine who is a Caribbean black and who is an American black. Is Collin Powell a black American? I think most will think that he is. Farrakhan another one who most will consider to be black American. Malcom X. These are people who are descended from Caribbean BORN parents, and are very different in how they view their position in the USA. While Malcolm X's father was US born he was a fervent Garveyite, so influenced by Caribbean blacks.

You in fact are more familiar with the black American working class than I am given that you have admitted that this is your origin.

Your black American friends in Africa go for the same reasons as do many white Americans, and I bet aren't seen as being that different.

Have you been to Africa? I have been ti Senegal, Liberia, Sierra Leone and Kenya, and Morocco as well. I mixed so much with Nigerians/Ghanaians that some even think that I am one. So I understand some practical realities, and yes they do tell me stories about black Americans who thought that they "went home".

They actually have more respect for the black Americans who wants to interact with blacks elsewhere, but who does so on the basis of being an American. They actually do have tremendous respect for the type of black American who has succeeded in the USA as they usually bring more value. The kente cloth crowd they don't so much go for.

Last edited by caribny; 08-12-2017 at 07:45 PM..
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:36 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgn2013 View Post
Excellent points.

As a black-American, I've realized that this nation is as much ours as anyone else's. We make the mistake of conceding our ground and trying to retreat to Africa when things get rough here. .
I agree. I also don't know why a group of people who have done so much to pave the way for other blacks globally want to downplay who they are by manufacturing this fake African thing. Which most do NOT do by the way.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:41 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
In Ghana, this same lady asked "why do you call me white? I certainly was not considered white in America" The answer was "You talk like a white person, you dress like a white person. "Do you speak Fante?" "No" "Hmm" well then you are
Obruni."

.


In fact an African once confronted a Caribbean British black who was also engaging in fake Africanism. A Nigerian asked him what non European languages did he speak. What is his dress aside from western attire. and what "tribe" was he from.

Not getting an answer he responded, "well whatever you are you aren't an African".

So yes we can go to Africa and see many familiar things. This being true especially for Caribbean and Brazilian blacks.

But we aren't African and will never be and I don't even know why we would want to be. Its interesting that it is always what should American/Caribbean/Latin American blacks do for Africa and not what Africa should do for the descendants of Transatlantic slavery. Its not PC to say this but those who didn't leave have a much harder time of it.
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:10 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,660,489 times
Reputation: 9170
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Its interesting that the fake Africans almost always have college degrees, often from the Ivy League. I really don't think that Jamal from the projects has any interest in Africa and in fact usually internalizes some of the most racist Tarzan notions of that continent that even most have abandoned. So no it has nothing to do with "working class American blacks".


Mr. Man in fact my connection to black Americans is almost exclusively with highly educated MBAs, professionals and business owners. These are my clients. And yes I am as Ivy League as you boast that you are, except that I don't have to fling that in with every New York post that I make.

One thing that you with your West Indian hating self will never understand is that one cannot draw a line and determine who is a Caribbean black and who is an American black. Is Collin Powell a black American? I think most will think that he is. Farrakhan another one who most will consider to be black American. Malcom X. These are people who are descended from Caribbean BORN parents, and are very different in how they view their position in the USA. While Malcolm X's father was US born he was a fervent Garveyite, so influenced by Caribbean blacks.

You in fact are more familiar with the black American working class than I am given that you have admitted that this is your origin.

Your black American friends in Africa go for the same reasons as do many white Americans, and I bet aren't seen as being that different.

Have you been to Africa? I have been ti Senegal, Liberia, Sierra Leone and Kenya, and Morocco as well. I mixed so much with Nigerians/Ghanaians that some even think that I am one. So I understand some practical realities, and yes they do tell me stories about black Americans who thought that they "went home".

They actually have more respect for the black Americans who wants to interact with blacks elsewhere, but who does so on the basis of being an American. They actually do have tremendous respect for the type of black American who has succeeded in the USA as they usually bring more value. The kente cloth crowd they don't so much go for.
Why are you obsessed with how I supposedly feel about West Indians? I've never said I hate anyone. You must be losing your mind. As for those men having Caribbean parents, that's public knowledge so it's not like you're giving me some secret information.
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:13 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,660,489 times
Reputation: 9170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
Americans need to understand the NON-AMERICAN viewpoint. Americans run around and say they are Irish-American, Italian-American, African-American. We know what WE mean when we say that we imply DESCENT. INDIGENOUS people in Ireland,
Italy and Africa see NOTHING OR VERY LITTLE that is Irish, Italian or African about them.

They see AMERICANS. Americans take this ancestry thing and LIMIT IT TO SUPERFICIAL DESCENT. Culture gets left out, that
is the problem. A nationality goes DEEPER THAN DESCENT it involves CULTURE. The people are looking at things culturally.

Before one goes to a country one needs to study that country and find out how he/she will be received. I understand why
some Black Americans feel the need to go "home" to Africa. Alienated, marginalized, made to feel like aliens in their own
country due to racism and rejection. But if someone goes to Africa, they need to get real about what they will encounter.

We can debate about labels and what nationality means what to who but at the end of the day overseas. Americans will be viewed as Americans. I am specifically talking about some AAs who go to Africa with a naive and unrealistic attitude, thinking just because they are
black, they will be automatically accepted.
Except there isn't a country called Africa. You have a variety of languages spoken across Africa, both native and then there are those introduced by European imperialism and than Arabic, introduced by Arab imperialism.

Then there are cultural and religious differences, as well.
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