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Old 08-17-2017, 10:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal View Post
You know what is interesting about this.

1. The debate occurred in the USA not in Africa. So all presumably are equally impacted as blacks by living in the USA. Therefore they know that the larger world seems them as blacks and really doesn't care about how they might self identify or what differences might exist between these groups. White America has appropriated those aspects of black American culture that it respects, considers Caribbean culture as a trivial vacation experience and sees nothing in African culture of interest. So they don't respect blacks regardless of who they are.

2. Most of the panelists of immigrant origin were second generation, people who arrived in the USA as kids, and some with mixed heritage (immigrant and black American parentage). Their perspectives would be shaped by life in the USA and NOT by life in the Caribbean or Africa.


Yet despite these bonds that would have tied these people there was still open dissent and a reality that a common pan African bonding is pure fantasy.

Now take this conversation to Sierra Leone where two years ago the nation was laid flat by Ebola and it was mainly white foreigners who had the resources to help them. Did black America rush over to help? No because black America does NOT have the resources to do so!

I have a feeling that a Liberian would ask what is all of this black skinned solidarity about. Consider that both nations until recently were run by non indigenous black elites, black American descendants in the case of Liberia, who were quite racist towards the local origin peoples.

Whatever problems blacks in the USA have the solution doesn't lie in Africa and most black Americans know this which is why few have any interest in Africa.

As to white Americans. Please go out on the road and ask random white Americans if they know who Macron is, who Theresa May is or if they even recall that 2 months ago over 100 people died in a building fire in London. THEY DO NOT CARE!
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You know what is interesting about this.

1. The debate occurred in the USA not in Africa. So all presumably are equally impacted as blacks by living in the USA. Therefore they know that the larger world seems them as blacks and really doesn't care about how they might self identify or what differences might exist between these groups. White America has appropriated those aspects of black American culture that it respects, considers Caribbean culture as a trivial vacation experience and sees nothing in African culture of interest. So they don't respect blacks regardless of who they are.

2. Most of the panelists of immigrant origin were second generation, people who arrived in the USA as kids, and some with mixed heritage (immigrant and black American parentage). Their perspectives would be shaped by life in the USA and NOT by life in the Caribbean or Africa.


Yet despite these bonds that would have tied these people there was still open dissent and a reality that a common pan African bonding is pure fantasy.

Now take this conversation to Sierra Leone where two years ago the nation was laid flat by Ebola and it was mainly white foreigners who had the resources to help them. Did black America rush over to help? No because black America does NOT have the resources to do so!

I have a feeling that a Liberian would ask what is all of this black skinned solidarity about. Consider that both nations until recently were run by non indigenous black elites, black American descendants in the case of Liberia, who were quite racist towards the local origin peoples.

Whatever problems blacks in the USA have the solution doesn't lie in Africa and most black Americans know this which is why few have any interest in Africa.

As to white Americans. Please go out on the road and ask random white Americans if they know who Macron is, who Theresa May is or if they even recall that 2 months ago over 100 people died in a building fire in London. THEY DO NOT CARE!
White Americans at higher levels of money do indeed know who May or Macron is, and the more educated ones not only vacation in Europe, when they want to they work and study there.

A number of famous politically connected Americans are Rhodes Scholars for example. In recent years it's become more popular to study in Canada or Europe because it's CHEAPER.

In the arts lots of American artists go to Europe to perform, otherwise do their art, or study. People like Madonna, Tina Turner, and a number of others have European residences.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
So since then black Americans have rolled over and are doing nothing to better their lives. You know if a black immigrant or a white person behaved like you do you would accuse them of bias and you would be right.

The civil rights movement, by removing legally enforced barriers that prevented blacks living in the USA, allowed them to use their energies, individual and collective to improve their lives. There has been a TREMENDOUS expansion of the black middle class. In 1960 most blacks were poor. In 2016 70% are NOT poor!

As to your interactions with people outside of the USA. Get this straight. Their interaction with you is governed by the fact that you are an American who has the money to vacation or engage in some other form of travel in their country. Like you said you didn't go looking for blacks, and most likely didn't find many because few of them were in the socio economic circles that you being a middle class American would have had access to.

You always adopt a condescending attitude as if you are the only person who has traveled. In terms of Latin America, I have been to the DR, Puerto Rico, Panama, Venezuela, Ecuador and Brazil. You know how a Dominican described me in terms of how I am viewed. As a gringo. And stated that speaking English and being educated would open lots of doors from me completely obliterating the fact that I am black. But you see because I entered those countries with "gringo privilege" doesn't mean that I didn't see how most blacks lived.
There's a huge disparity in the income and assets between white Americans in general and black americans in general. So essentially Black Americans are still disproportionately poor and disproportionately incarcerated.

So yes the civil rights movement was a FAILURE on MANY FRONTS.

Would I say the civil rights movement did no good or that I have had no benefits from it? Of course not.

But to make a failed movement into some sort of sacred movement that is somehow beyond reproach is ridiculous.

And no, I would not call a Black immigrant or a white person biased for saying the civil rights movement failed on many fronts. I've had conversations like this with many people of all ethnicities. These are my views.

I don't think I'm the only person who traveled. I know plenty of people who have traveled, and I met plenty of travelers on my journeys. I do think that you and a certain someone else are just complete fools.

We call the Black American professionals you're so proud of tokens. Tokens are when a company, in order to superficially gives the idea of reform, will decide to hire a black person, a woman, or a gay person. Meanwhile all the jobs that pay well will still be disproportionately occupied by white men.

Tokenism is not acceptable, and unlike people who are stuck in the civil rights era who were always impressed by the first Black person to do this or that (sometimes the only Black person to do this or that).

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 08-17-2017 at 12:07 PM..
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
And this is the issue that we are discussing. I DO NOT CARE IF A WHITE PERSON THINKS THIS OF ME BECAUSE I KNOW WHO I AM! Their thinking reflects their own ignorance. The world is changing and becoming more diverse and if they cannot relate to that they will not do too well.

.
I recall about 30 years ago a white waiter in a NYC restaurant used the "N" world on me. I fell off my chair in laughter and had to drink water to avoid choking. The female who I was with, who was a black American was more disturbed by my reaction than at the behavior of the waiter. She didn't see why I thought it was a joke My reaction was that some little waiter begging me for tips (which off course he didn't get) thinking that he was going to insult me was hysterical.

The waiter fled and I suspect was terrified that I would tell his boss to have him fired. I didn't become the hysterically angry Negro creating a disturbance, which I think was his intent, so it would have been he who would have looked as the bad actor here. He didn't show up again while I was in the restaurant. Another waiter came.

My point is that my reaction didn't serve to empower him as some one who had the ability to upset my day. In fact it made him realize how puny he was.
Oh but you do care what a white person thinks of you. If you don't why don't you move in with the white nationalists who are protesting the removal of confederate monuments? You don't because you fear for your physical safety.

You're actually pretty conservative, but you don't vote Republican. You know fully well at best the Republicans won't accept you, and at most I refer you to those white nationalists who want you DEAD.

The story at the restaurant is utterly inconsequential to the context of this conversation.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
I do happen to agree with you. Sadly some young educated black millennials view themselves through the prism of how the white world sees them. They don't seem to have a narrative which centers themselves within their world.
You and the old African American fool are deliberately distorting things to cover your impotence and cowardice.

No one views themselves from the prism of the white American world.

However younger people are free to complain about things in part because we can in the 2017. Unlike people who grew up in defacto slavery and who had to accept whatever maid/farmer job that was available to them, who had to grow up in shacks, etc. That wasn't strength, if they complained they could be imprisoned, hung, shot, have their house burned down, etc.

You attempt to hide behind false bravado because you known in your soul that the civil rights movements didn't make things so good for Black Americans. Look at NYC. In many areas it's goodbye African Americans and Black immigrants as they get gentrified out, and as they simply do not have access to higher paying jobs or the education that would enable them to get higher paying jobs. Yes a small percentage of African Americans get into top universities or get advanced degrees (myself among them) but this does not change the fact that poverty is overwhelming Black, and so is mass incarceration.

You and Agbor didn't really want to address socioeconomic issues, as you two were satisfied with the creation of a SMALL Black middle class.

So you accuse Black Americans who aren't senile fossils (whose brains haven't been addled by dementia) of weeping when white people don't love us, despite the fact that none of us are saying that. It's a shame neither you nor Agbor have much in the way of intelligence.

Many of us (different people are saying different things and have different agendas) are saying progress from the civil rights movement is unacceptably mediocre at best and the massive rates of incarceration among African Americans, along with police killings, along with economic marginalization is simply unacceptable. And yes, I am saying, and I'll say it again, there's a difference between superficial tolerance and actual acceptance.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:26 PM
 
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And I might add, CaribNY, in terms of how you perceive things or why you perceive things on your trips overseas, I neither know nor care. Similarly you don't know how or why I had a good time in Latin America, you can keep you two cents to yourself and stop trying to over explain things.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:42 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,956,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
White Americans at higher levels of money do indeed know who May or Macron is, and the more educated ones not only vacation in Europe, when they want to they work and study there.

A number of famous politically connected Americans are Rhodes Scholars for example. In recent years it's become more popular to study in Canada or Europe because it's CHEAPER.

In the arts lots of American artists go to Europe to perform, otherwise do their art, or study. People like Madonna, Tina Turner, and a number of others have European residences.
Educated white Americans might also know that a few days ago a major mud slide killed scores of people in Sierra Leone. However 70% of all white Americans haven't completed 4 year college...Even some who did aren't necessarily "educated" in terms of having a knowledge or interest of the outside world. Our current president is an example of this.


The point is that the average white Americans doesn't know or care about what's happening in Europe, even those running around screaming that they are 100% "European", wailing to make America "white again" and having a melt down when their ancestry DNA test comes back with a 10% sub Saharan African genome marker.


Americans in general are very ignorant about the rest of the world. I hardly think that this is a phenomenon confined to black Americans and their ignorance of Africa.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:48 PM
 
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[quote=NyWriterdude;49224888]There's a huge disparity in the income and assets between white Americans in general and black americans in general. [quote]



I wasn't aware that the Civil Rights movement had as an objective a desire to completely eradicate the wealth gap between blacks and whites. Its objective was to reduce the LEGALLY enforced barriers that restricted blacks from attempting to improve their access to opportunity.




Maybe you prefer a world where your ability to attend quality colleges was barred by law. Your ability to access upper level occupations was restricted by law. Your ability to live in communities with better social and physical infrastructure and job opportunities was not allowed by law. And anyone could do anything to you because you had virtually no standing in the legal system.


THAT was the USA before the civil rights movement, and if you think that NYC or Chicago were much better than Alabama or Mississippi you are wrong. In fact MLK was shocked at the fact that the hostility that he saw directed against blacks was worse in Chicago than it was in Alabama, or Georgia.


So continue to pour scorn on the civil rights movement. I think that you really think that your life would have been better if you were born in 1930.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:50 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,956,450 times
Reputation: 3804
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
And I might add, CaribNY, in terms of how you perceive things or why you perceive things on your trips overseas, I neither know nor care. Similarly you don't know how or why I had a good time in Latin America, you can keep you two cents to yourself and stop trying to over explain things.


Yes the usual selfish American enjoying his American privilege overseas and not caring a damn about how those who lack that privilege are treated. I understand why you don't care.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:52 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,956,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
You and the old African American fool are deliberately distorting things to cover your impotence and cowardice.

No one views themselves from the prism of the white American world.

.


So what are YOU doing about it? Crying that white people don't like you, and moaning how hard it is to be black so you can escape to a third world society where you being American gets you privileges?

If you are waiting for white people to like you that will be in vain especially as you don't even seem to like yourself. Because if you did you wouldn't waste precious time worrying about what some uneducated person thinks about you.


FYI it isn't just blacks being gentrified out either as anyone seeing whites moving into high crime neighborhoods will know. They don't move there by choice. They move there because that is the only place that they can afford. Many living packed like sardines, terrified that homelessness comes quickly if one of their room mates decides to move, or becomes unable to pick up their share of the rent.

I don't see a thing written by you that improves the situation and crying about the fact that whites don't like you and think that you are a criminal is hardly an intelligent reaction.


You can scoff at our ages but in another 20 years another youth will scoff at your age too. One of the things about being around the planet a little longer is we see how often things don't really change. You will not remain your current age forever. Take it from people who were your age not that long ago, and now are older and a little wiser having experienced a little more than you clearly have.
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