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Old 09-04-2017, 06:19 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,968,377 times
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
Black Lives Matter are contemporary and urban. They and their predecessors did good work in dealing with stop and frisks and dealing with other issues of polic brutality.
BLM is the 21st century example of the Civil Rights movement of the 60s. In fact in neither case is the limited access of black men to employment or economic opportunity really addressed, so the long term impact isn't going to be that different.

With up to 40% of black men in some cities neither working nor in school/training there will always be higher incidences of crime which will be used by institutional racists to justify higher levels of policing in black neighborhoods.

The biggest problem that black men have is the fact that large numbers aren't incorporated into the economic system. Hispanics, even Puerto Ricans, are less educated, but are more likely to have jobs.

Access to employment for blacks should be the #1 issue that people should be discussing. Resolve that and "black on black" crime, high levels of single mothers, and the other ills will be vastly reduced.

There is a huge drop in stop and frisk in NYC but the position of poor black men remains as dire as it ever was.
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Old 09-04-2017, 06:20 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,968,377 times
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
My research interests are in learning languages .
Most blacks in the Americas don't speak English yet you don't seem that interested in them either.
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Old 09-04-2017, 06:32 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,968,377 times
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Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Within their own birth cohorts I think Post-Millennials will experience King's dream. When Millennials and Most-Millennials come into control of society--when they are the legislators, the CEOs, the mayors of major metropolitan areas, the judges, and the president--they will not continue the same racial environment we Boomers were born into.

.
Let us hope so and I used to think so. That is until I began to see the hiring practices of the older cohort of Millennials. They don't hate blacks and in fact are very involved in what they see as black culture. They love Chris Roc and see him as an American.

But when they hire people its mainly whites with the odd Hispanic and Asian. Unless some black person is their personal buddy they don't see them as employment material.

I think that Millennial blacks will have a tougher time. They are lulled into thinking that we live in a post racial world where only an ignorant few are bigots, but that all others will judge them by their character. But then when the white Millennial doesn't hire them and says that race has nothing to do with it, what do they do?

I see a Latin American style right there. Racism without "racists." And those who cry racism will be told that they have a personal problem. This by their bosses who will tell them how much they love Jay Z so how can they be racists. And they will point out as examples those blacks who did make it without discussing what those blacks had to do to get there.

Because here is the deal. Indian and Hispanic Millennials aren't fooled. Neither are many Asians. They know that they must support each other and advocate for each other even as the penetrate these white dominated institutions.

It will be us blacks, always yearning to be validated by others, who will get left behind because we will think that "post racial" means that race will no longer determine who gets promoted and who doesn't.
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:18 PM
 
20,318 posts, read 11,278,902 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Let us hope so and I used to think so. That is until I began to see the hiring practices of the older cohort of Millennials. They don't hate blacks and in fact are very involved in what they see as black culture. They love Chris Roc and see him as an American.

But when they hire people its mainly whites with the odd Hispanic and Asian. Unless some black person is their personal buddy they don't see them as employment material.
That "personal buddy" aspect requires more appraisal. My Millennial daughter has noted the same thing, but she doesn't see a racially inspired roadblock to "personal buddy."

What she does see is that Millennial employers are more likely to hire persons who are very culturally similar and very much likely to engage in the same pursuits on and off work.

That's likely to preclude "urban" blacks, but not, for instance, the black kids I work with at church, all of whom live in the same McMansions, whose parents drive the same SUVs, who belong to the same $1500-a-month high school sports clubs.
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:30 PM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,536 posts, read 2,041,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
BLM is the 21st century example of the Civil Rights movement of the 60s. In fact in neither case is the limited access of black men to employment or economic opportunity really addressed, so the long term impact isn't going to be that different.

With up to 40% of black men in some cities neither working nor in school/training there will always be higher incidences of crime which will be used by institutional racists to justify higher levels of policing in black neighborhoods.

The biggest problem that black men have is the fact that large numbers aren't incorporated into the economic system. Hispanics, even Puerto Ricans, are less educated, but are more likely to have jobs.

Access to employment for blacks should be the #1 issue that people should be discussing. Resolve that and "black on black" crime, high levels of single mothers, and the other ills will be vastly reduced.

There is a huge drop in stop and frisk in NYC but the position of poor black men remains as dire as it ever was.
What's the greatest hurdle to black men finding jobs?

I know there's no single factor as you'd have to include discrepancies in education, blatant racism, unfair policing and legislative practices (brothas getting caught with a little weed go to jail while white kids with cocaine get community service), simply living in areas where there just aren't many jobs etc.

On random days where I decide to take off at lunch, I'll drive around running errands. The one thing that has always stood out to me, going back to high school, is the number of relatively young black men (mostly under age 40) that are just standing around. I don't see backpacks, briefcases or anything else. They'll be getting on and off the buses and trains with seemingly no place to go.
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:42 PM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,536 posts, read 2,041,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
That "personal buddy" aspect requires more appraisal. My Millennial daughter has noted the same thing, but she doesn't see a racially inspired roadblock to "personal buddy."

What she does see is that Millennial employers are more likely to hire persons who are very culturally similar and very much likely to engage in the same pursuits on and off work.

That's likely to preclude "urban" blacks, but not, for instance, the black kids I work with at church, all of whom live in the same McMansions, whose parents drive the same SUVs, who belong to the same $1500-a-month high school sports clubs.
Agreed.

In past generations, race = culture (not 100% but close). Today, people in my generation will discriminate based on one's perceived culture more than simply race. If John Smith (black guy) is a cosmopolitan, smooth talker that's fluent in code switching and a big NBA fan...and his hiring manager is a liberal leaning Gen-X/Older Millenial that also loves basketball...they're more likely to hire him than the twangy good-ol boy from Georgia.

Now having said that, the black guy may struggle to move up the corporate ladder. If the good-ol boy got hired at the same time, he'd probably move up quicker than John Smith.

If John Smith was Quintavious Washington, he'd also struggle just to get his foot in the door. The young white won't discriminate purely on race, but on what they "perceive" are your values. John (black guy) Smith will be perceived differently than Quintavious (black guy) Washington.

Barack Obama is a good example of this. If he had the same background and upbringing as his wife and was named Barry O'Bama, I doubt he comes close to getting elected. He was black enough to be accepted as "black" but not so much that people felt he was tainted by what they think of as black pathology.
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Old 09-04-2017, 08:45 PM
 
20,318 posts, read 11,278,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgn2013 View Post
A
Now having said that, the black guy may struggle to move up the corporate ladder. If the good-ol boy got hired at the same time, he'd probably move up quicker than John Smith.
Millennials are not yet controlling many corporations that can be said to have "ladders." Those corporations still have policies and philosophies created by Boomers and older X-Genners.

"Designed by Boomers" includes those laws that put the black weed-smoker in prison and slap the hand of the white cocaine user.

"Designed by Boomers" includes the policies taught to police (including Millennial and even black police officers) who treat blacks with more suspicion than whites.

Things do change as generations change. Back in the 80s, cornrows for black women were explicitly forbidden in US Air Force dress regulations. They said "Cornrows and braids are not permitted." This was always rather silly because cornrows and braids are eminently practical hair styles for military women out in the field. They were prohibited because they were considered "extreme."

That was in the 80s. But the military has very short "generations" because of the 20-year retirement. That has good and bad points to it, but in this case the people who were old enough to think cornrows were "extreme" eventually retired out to be replaced by people who had seen them every day in school--no longer "extreme"--and by the 90s the manual included a picture of a black woman in cornrows as the example of acceptable appearance (and it certainly did not hurt that braids and cornrows had been "appropriated" by Bo Derek and other white women).

My point is that policies can change with generations, and the race-based policies of the Boomers (including older X-Genners) will be changed when Millennials and Post-Millennials eventually move into positions to replace those policies...another 25 to 30 years from now.

Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; 09-04-2017 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:23 AM
 
57,002 posts, read 81,385,123 times
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Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
So here is what we (that is, black Americans) are not talking about...and the reason we are not talking about it is because we're afraid of what the enemies of black skin will make of it:

The black people who had been engaged in the Civil Rights Movement since the Post-Bellum Reconstruction were not significantly culturally different from the white people around them.

Those black people held essentially the same moral standards as the white people, believed in the same religious tenets as those white people, held the same concepts of honor, love, justice, and family as those white people. We have to be sure we don't overemphasize the exigencies that applied racism forced upon them. The only real difference was skin color.

The choice of an educated, church-staff, married NAACP member over a pregnant high school drop-out was not "seeking the approval of white conservatives," it was by far their own choice of a person the black community could most strongly rally behind.

You might find it hard to believe: Back then, being a pregnant high school dropout was not a matter of celebration for either black or white people.



I have begun to crystallize an understanding of a phenomenon which I first had a glimmer 'way back in the early 60s. That black culture I spoke about up above--essentially a southern, largely rural culture--was something developed uniquely as a response to the unique character of Southern American racism. It was uniquely a result of a "separate but (almost) equal" concept that created parallel societies in the South that didn't really exist in other parts of the country.

And black Southern culture was parallel in nearly every way we could make it parallel, albeit more economically depressed.

When young blacks migrated northward for job opportunities, there was something vital they did not do: They did not take their grandmothers with them. The grandmothers largely stayed back in the South. But the problem that caused is that grandmothers are the keepers of culture. So the heart of that Southern culture did not migrate north. It was always "back home."

Until, eventually, "back home" was forgotten. Or rather, both forgotten and erased--that erasure came in the 70s when we gave up control of our image and turned it over to Hollywood.

But the Civil Rights Era was born from black Southern culture. Martin Luther King, Thurgood Marshall, Rosa Parks, Charles Drew, Katherine Johnson, John L Lewis--those were all educated, "well-bred," genteel members of their societies, and were mirrors of white Southern counterparts who saw their suffering as due to nothing but the color of their skin.

That particular culture is IMO nearly extinct. Without the unique de juris condition of "separate but (nearly) equal" parallel societies, that black southern culture has nothing to continue its support--and that is the paradoxical result of the success of the Civil Rights Era. It will be extinct when black Boomers are dead. Some black X-Genners will remember it, but the black Millennial generation will not carry it forward.

I would like to have seen what Malcolm X could have done in the north, because I do believe the north required a radically different solution because it was a radically different problem. There were not parallel cultures in the north, and the essential connection "back home" had been severed for most northern and western urban areas (and arguably had never existed in the Northeast).

Malcolm X was probably correct in that northern blacks needed to develop a radically different and radically positive culture for their place. Northern blacks needed a "boot camp" culture that the Black Muslims proposed (although probably not the Black Muslim religion itself). It's a tragedy that in-fighting within the Black Muslims caused Malcolm's death (and, yes, I'm convinced Farrakhan was behind it) and the different vision Malcolm had.

But that didn't happen, and what has happened is that an urban black way of existence("Chiraqs" and "Blackistans")--I hesitate to call it "culture"--has developed that feeds upon itself. It cripples its fathers, injures its mothers, and devours its children. It's a dead end.

Islam, no. American Christianity is mostly too prostituted to the worst of white American culture (which happened to the black Church when it no longer had racism as a primary foe and could become a "prosperity" religion).

Maybe Buddhism or Baha'i would work.
This is very interesting, but I think more migrated than people realized and perhaps you could tell the difference between the families that did and didn't. Luckily, I got to know 3 out of 4 of my grandparents and I would ask questions about their experience, particularly my paternal grandmother. So, I think this would vary in terms of migration patterns.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:52 AM
 
57,002 posts, read 81,385,123 times
Reputation: 12613
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
BLM is the 21st century example of the Civil Rights movement of the 60s. In fact in neither case is the limited access of black men to employment or economic opportunity really addressed, so the long term impact isn't going to be that different.

With up to 40% of black men in some cities neither working nor in school/training there will always be higher incidences of crime which will be used by institutional racists to justify higher levels of policing in black neighborhoods.

The biggest problem that black men have is the fact that large numbers aren't incorporated into the economic system. Hispanics, even Puerto Ricans, are less educated, but are more likely to have jobs.

Access to employment for blacks should be the #1 issue that people should be discussing. Resolve that and "black on black" crime, high levels of single mothers, and the other ills will be vastly reduced.

There is a huge drop in stop and frisk in NYC but the position of poor black men remains as dire as it ever was.
I'll go a step further and say black male entrepreneurship should be a big topic of discussion. I'm not even talking about anything "innovative" either, but even creating a landscaping/plowing company or a corner store(which in many cases aren't even owned by black folks in black neighborhoods). Sometimes we might think it means to reinvent the wheel, when it really means to fill a need in the community.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:18 AM
 
24,292 posts, read 17,730,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
BLM is the 21st century example of the Civil Rights movement of the 60s. In fact in neither case is the limited access of black men to employment or economic opportunity really addressed, so the long term impact isn't going to be that different.

With up to 40% of black men in some cities neither working nor in school/training there will always be higher incidences of crime which will be used by institutional racists to justify higher levels of policing in black neighborhoods.

The biggest problem that black men have is the fact that large numbers aren't incorporated into the economic system. Hispanics, even Puerto Ricans, are less educated, but are more likely to have jobs.

Access to employment for blacks should be the #1 issue that people should be discussing. Resolve that and "black on black" crime, high levels of single mothers, and the other ills will be vastly reduced.

There is a huge drop in stop and frisk in NYC but the position of poor black men remains as dire as it ever was.
No one is going to be employed if they are locked behind bars, or if they have been killed by the police.

As for obtaining employment, the individual has responsibilities in figuring out the best way to get employment.
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