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Old 09-12-2017, 01:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Be honest way more black men are killed by other black men, and the reason for that is because they aren't engaged in the official economy, so become trapped in an underground economy and this is the side effect.

I don't see police killing Indians in the same amounts and they are sometimes as dark as we are. In the dark many Hispanics will look white, at first glance, yet they will be harassed more than will an Indian, though less than will a black.

Reason. They are more likely to be engaged in underground economic activities. And I have a suspicion that in NYC Puerto Ricans get more roughed up by the police than are Mexicans.

So unless one addresses the economic issue your cause will be viewed in time as being as much of a failure as you view the civil rights movement.

This is the reality. If one doesn't want cockroaches around (in this case police) one tries to reduce that which interests them. Cockroaches arrive where food and water exists. Cops arrive when people are engaged in underground activities.
The economic causes cannot be addressed as such.

So long as a significant portion of the Black population is marginalized and kept outside of what is considered to be the mainstream, those economic issues will never be addressed.

People find out about job opportunities, educational opportunities, and other relevant opportunities based on people they know. Not in some sort of esoteric way, but through whatever people they interact with in their daily lives.

I'm well aware of the history, but those economically deprived men you speak of will have to figure out ways to interact with a greater diversity of people if they want to change their situation. And this includes not letting themselves be marginalized or stuck or dumped in certain sections of town. This isn't something that can necessarily be solved for everyone, and it is something that must take place at an individual level.

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 09-12-2017 at 01:32 AM..
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
And yet you think that to suggest that more of "them" (meaning poor blacks) get the opportunities that you and Michelle got is some how class prejudice. Its as if you think that "them" cannot do better so all we can hope for is the cops to leave them alone.

Show me a country with poor people and I will show you people who the cops will harass. Want the cops to stop this, them help these people to be less poor.

But yes I see your sensibilities are that of a Liberal White. I am certainly not surprised. Liberal Whites really don't want equity for most blacks. They want to hand pick a few so they can burnish their Liberal credentials. The issue is that as they age, get kids and own properties they too will want to be "protected" against the "other" blacks that they are afraid of.

Todays Millennial protestors are no different from the Boomer protestors of the late 60s and early 70s, and we know how that ended up.
I said no such thing, and this is in response to the first bolded sentence.

As for the second part, again that's utterly ridiculous.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Now THAT looks like snobbery. Some people need more help than do others to even spot the goal.
The goal is different for different people and it's ultimately up to the person to decide how they want to live.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Name a society where a group of people are stigmatized and economically marginalized and I will name a society where there is high crime and high levels of police brutality.

I suggest the focus be on addressing the issues which serve to economically exclude certain groups of people, then there will be less societal demand for certain groups to be intensely policed.

Please remember that the "War on Drugs" wasn't only demanded by conservative whites. Many black communities in the crack infested 1980s and 90s tired of the endless drive by shootings, identified gang bangers as being responsible and then demanded more police protection.

So why do these gangs exist? That should be the question asked and answered, and economic marginalization will pop up as one of the root causes at some point.
You mean racial marginalization. Dumping all the "Blacks" in Black neighborhoods where they are only around other poor "Blacks" and where they are cut off from the general life including employment had catastrophic consequences.

Of course police protection, when provided wasn't for poor Black residents. For neighborhoods like Harlem and Bedstuy it was done more to clear the neighborhood for white residents. Of course these days whites rather openly do cocaine, opiates, crystal meth, molly,LSD, in addition to weed.

Once police protection was provided landlords got to jack up the rents and it was goodbye for many poor Black people in certain parts of big cities. So they screwed themselves in lobbying for greater police protection.

I'm not saying the status quo of the late 80s/early 90s was good or that it's okay to shoot people up, but those fools who lobbied for war on drugs were too naive to realize that the war on drugs was really a cover up to get rid of THEM!

At least some of the ministers who pushed for this got to sell their churches at good rates to developers. Of course I'm certain most of the worshippers didn't get a cut.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
The economic causes cannot be addressed as such.

So long as a significant portion of the Black population is marginalized and kept outside of what is considered to be the mainstream, those economic issues will never be addressed.

..
So if the reasons for their exclusion from the economic mainstream aren't addressed then they will remain poor. They will be "kept out" until we figure the reason for this is.

Hispanics are not more educated but yet Hispanic men are more likely to be employed, and I am referring to Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. So lack of education isn't the reason.

I am noticing this more and more. If an office computer breaks down the person fixing it is a Hispanic. When the central air isn't working a Hispanic again. If a black person shows up its almost always a middle aged West Indian, meaning that their sons aren't following them into this either.

So what is wrong with black men who are either born in the USA or who grow up here?

Maybe we think that if one cannot be a doctor, lawyer, or an IT person then there isn't anything that one can do. Maybe we focus too much on whites instead of doing what we can based on what is available.

I do know that whites aren't out there offering opportunities to Hispanics. I also know that Hispanics aren't waiting on whites to do this. And when you hire one Hispanic he will ensure that every job that he is aware of goes to his fellow Hispanic buddies.

Yes by all means do the BLM thing but if that is all then that movement will end up just like you feel that the Civil Rights movement did. No group offered another group a thing.

Paddy wagons were named because the boisterous Irish were always being arrested. As they became less marginalized they ceased to be a target. There is something to learn from that.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
You mean racial marginalization. Dumping all the "Blacks" in Black neighborhoods..
This is the thing. I grew up raised by black people in a black neighborhood, taught by black teachers and I got into Columbia as a foreign student, meaning that there was no affirmative action there. I also performed well there.

Why do so many blacks think that we can only excel if we are around whites? Black men have the highest unemployment rates and the lowest rates of labor force participation.

It has become very evident that as the Italians and other ethnic white men exit decent paying blue collar jobs that Puerto Ricans are their replacement. I even see more of them working for Transit.

All that you describe of blacks can also apply to Hispanics, yet despite the additional barrier of language it looks as if they are beginning to slowly inch ahead.

Screaming "white man oh save me" isn't going to change a thing! They have screwed over blacks for 400 years and I see no evidence that they plan to change soon, especially when it comes to non elite blacks! We really need to flee massa's plantation with all that thinking that "massa is obligated to feed us".


The problem is that too many poor black men lack the hard and soft skills to hold down a job so they get economically marginalized. The challenge will be how to we equip them with these skills. Whites want jobs for their own people so they aren't going to rush to help us out.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
.Of course police protection, when provided wasn't for poor Black residents. ..
Which is the complaint of many blacks who live in poor high crime communities where they are abused by thugs.

Many old black ladies will be racing home before sunset in a few months as they days grow shorter. This because some of our economically marginalized black men will think that she has economic benefits that they are obligated to take from her. She doesn't go to sleep until her grandson gets home as she fears that he will be shot, and not by a cop either.

She wishes that the cops valued her life, and that of her grandson, as much as they do those of gentrifyers.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:15 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,660,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
This is the thing. I grew up raised by black people in a black neighborhood, taught by black teachers and I got into Columbia as a foreign student, meaning that there was no affirmative action there. I also performed well there.

Why do so many blacks think that we can only excel if we are around whites? Black men have the highest unemployment rates and the lowest rates of labor force participation.

It has become very evident that as the Italians and other ethnic white men exit decent paying blue collar jobs that Puerto Ricans are their replacement. I even see more of them working for Transit.

All that you describe of blacks can also apply to Hispanics, yet despite the additional barrier of language it looks as if they are beginning to slowly inch ahead.

Screaming "white man oh save me" isn't going to change a thing! They have screwed over blacks for 400 years and I see no evidence that they plan to change soon, especially when it comes to non elite blacks! We really need to flee massa's plantation with all that thinking that "massa is obligated to feed us".


The problem is that too many poor black men lack the hard and soft skills to hold down a job so they get economically marginalized. The challenge will be how to we equip them with these skills. Whites want jobs for their own people so they aren't going to rush to help us out.
In part because Black people like you have been "fixing" the Black community for years, and it just doesn't work.

Clearly it cannot, and not because of Black people.

There is a difference between growing up in a predominately Black nation, and growing up in a nation in which you are a marginalized minority. All Black neighborhoods in the context of the US are always underresourced in terms of resources for education, in terms of medical and mental health resources, in terms of jobs, in terms of amenities, and even in terms of resources like retail and banking, and if they do get a significant boost in resources it's to make room for white gentrifiers.

Hispanics are not AS marginalized as Blacks, and more readily integrate with white people.

As for those poor men who lack skills, they are going to have to do their part and figure out how to get them. At this level the individual has to make efforts to fix their OWN situation. It's up to the individual to figure out what skills they need to develop to move ahead.

Last edited by NyWriterdude; 09-12-2017 at 08:29 AM..
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:23 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,660,489 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Which is the complaint of many blacks who live in poor high crime communities where they are abused by thugs.

Many old black ladies will be racing home before sunset in a few months as they days grow shorter. This because some of our economically marginalized black men will think that she has economic benefits that they are obligated to take from her. She doesn't go to sleep until her grandson gets home as she fears that he will be shot, and not by a cop either.

She wishes that the cops valued her life, and that of her grandson, as much as they do those of gentrifyers.
The reality is that they don't. Sadly. So if the area gets police protection it is because the neighborhood IS gentrifying, or the real estate industry is about to gentrify the area. If they have the money to remain then they can benefit for better police protection. Of course many do not.

Though to be fair many (not all) of these elderly Black women did a terrible job in raising their sons and grandsons. These women are every bit of the problem. A number of women had children they could not afford, who they dumped on their mothers (some of these women are now elderly) or raise their grandchildren after their children went to jail (and sadly in some cases didn't do much better with their grandchildren). Of course there was the overall neglect and abuse from some of these women to their children.

I think things have gotten a lot better due to the intervention of ACS, birth control (including abortion).

Oh and the gentrifiers are probably pretty active in the movement to legalize cannabis, and probably have done other drugs, which is why these days addiction is now considered a health issue, not a criminal issue as white people are more honest about their own drug use. To the point where Oregon voted to decriminalize six other drugs (In Europe Portugal has decriminalized all drugs).
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:09 AM
 
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This isn't that popular to say, but a significant portion of the white middle class AND a significant portion of the Black middle class for that matter are government creations.

The GI Bill gives veterans fantastic benefits, including paying for college, free medical care, income for disabled veterans, income for spouses who take care of disabled veterans, subsidized mortgages, subsidized loans for businesses, etc. A big percentage of Black middle class men are veterans, but this is true of white people as well.

There is a Black middle class in NYC most definititely. And they work in union jobs at the MTA, at the Post Office, and at other civil service agencies. Something which infuriates CaribNY, but that it was it is.

Of course student loans and pell grants, various government ways of subsidizing higher education enable poor people to attend college who otherwise wouldn't.

The government, whose marginalizing policies created the ghetto, has the power to uncreate it. But the government is made up of society as a whole.
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