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Old 09-12-2017, 09:18 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,666,164 times
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Lastly for the men who do go to prison for committing a number of crimes, many of those men who have been criminals have pulled their lives together and gotten work or even gone to college and gotten degrees and become professionals. It is an individual choice as to what kind of lifestyle one lives, and though there do need to be changes in the broader society, the INDIVIDUAL has to take responsibility for his or her life.

Nothing stops an unemployed Black man or a man of any race from working to get the skills he needs, and from moving to wherever he wants to live. Of course, while the individual has to make the effort and put in the work, it's the government who pays or provides for classes in prison, it's the government that in an attempt to prevent return to prison decides to educate those you call thugs, etc. The people who deal with these issues are social workers, psychologists, and those in related fields.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:44 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,666,164 times
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I'm not convinced with all the opportunities we have that needs to be a "movement" to deal with economic issues in the Black community, and certainly not with all the help and the avenues for people to move up. It's up to INDIVIDUALS to figure those things out for themselves.

And I have my own life to live, and my own things to be deal with. So quite frankly I don't really give a damn about all this Black community BS. If people need help they need to speak to social workers or psychologists, and I am neither of those things. Not every Black person with an education is or wants to be those things, and it's not my job to "help".
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:10 AM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,536 posts, read 2,034,033 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Not necessarily less education as many of the Koreans were highly educated. However their English was poor and their college degrees weren't recognized in the USA. It is really only recently that South Korea is seen as a "developed" nation, so its likely that new Korean immigrants don't have this problem.

But you are correct when you state that these immigrant corner store owners don't want their kids to follow them. They want their kids into the Ivy league and then entering high level professions. Once they achieve this they then sell their businesses to whoever wishes to buy.

So I don't know why some black people think that the route to wealth is through owning a fruit & veg store, In fact I have over heard even some of the Arabs talking about studies in engineering. As soon as they get the degree they are GONE from the deli.

If blacks aren't able to enter the professions we will be even less likely to succeed in business.

Owning businesses is a means to an end for them, totally agree.

Blacks that have an entrepreneurial spirit should focus on IDEAS instead of just running some random business that many others have replicated. Perhaps creating a phone app with a function that is really useful for instance, would be a great idea.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:31 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
..
As for those poor men who lack skills, they are going to have to do their part and figure out how to get them. At this level the individual has to make efforts to fix their OWN situation. It's up to the individual to figure out what skills they need to develop to move ahead.
You just wail about living in a black neighborhood and the marginalization that it brings and now you become the snob expecting them to figure their way out of this problem with no help from them.

So if indeed they are segregated then how are they supposed to learn the rules of the game and what they need to have to become a player? Yes in their under resourced schools!

You are a real piece of confusion. Is it that your white friends got you to join BLM and now you can go prancing down the streets with them? Because clearly you don't care one iota for ordinary black folks as you never lose a moment to pour scorn on them.

I seriously don't think that Puerto Ricans and Dominicans living in the South Bronx have more access to anything that blacks lack. They just have a different approach to resolving their issues. If Jose gets a job, he tells Miguel. He tells his boss that Miguel is the best person ever. Then Jose and Miguel to the same thing for Fernando, and then for Hector. And then you go to a work site and they are all Hispanic. They pool their information and so become more aware of what skills are needed and what they have to do to get them.

Blacks like you pour scorn on your own. THAT is the difference. Some one looking like Reuben Diaz Jr isn't going to be embraced by whites.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:40 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
This isn't that popular to say, but a significant portion of the white middle class AND a significant portion of the Black middle class for that matter are government creations.

.for ..
I don't know what is controversial about this. Prior to the various WWII programs there were white ghettoes in NYC with all the pathologies that the black and Hispanic ghettoes now have. The Irish were no better off than are blacks today and ditto for the Italians when compared to Puerto Ricans.

Hard work alone didn't allow the descendants of European immigrants or the descendants of white migrants from the South to enter the middle class. They received ample help through the GI Bill and other programs.

Discrimination from the private sector was quite intense and until the 70s it was virtually impossible for blacks to enter white collar occupations outside of the public sector. So even today the black middle class, especially the black AMERICAN middle class are disproportionately employed in this sector. This being why black recovery from the Great Recession is slower because the public sector is not creating jobs at the same rate that the private sector is.

So while blacks didn't benefit from the post WWII programs the public sector allowed them entry into the middle class. It is no coincidence that the DC area has the largest concentration of affluent blacks in the USA. This because of the relatively higher salaries in the Federal government, and the greater opportunities to transfer skills and contacts to the private sector.

In the DC area the private sector is heavily dependent on government contracts so sneers less at public sector experience than they might in NYC.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:50 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
I'm not convinced with all the opportunities we have that needs to be a "movement" .".

Do you think that blacks have a genetic disposition to being more criminal than other groups. This being what many non blacks think. The reason why there is a higher level of crime within black communities, when compared to Hispanic communities is because fewer black men are engaged in the labor force.

In NYC it is arguably the Mexicans who have the lowest involvement in crime among Hispanic groups, and Puerto Ricans the highest. Coincidentally Mexican men have the highest labor force participation rates in NYC. Puerto Rican male labor force participation is higher only than it is for black American men. Its is LOWER than it is for black Caribbean men.

The higher the level of crime in a community the more it will be policed. The more the police will develop a notion in their heads that they operate within a criminal community (either direct involvement or condoning this activity). Therefore the more one will see police abuse as in their minds everyone who they encounter is a perp until they are proved innocent.

You wail that the Civil Rights movement failed because it left many blacks economically marginalized. Yet you don't connect your BLM movement with the need to reduce economical marginalization?

So what is the goal of the BLM. An opportunity for young white Millennials, and those who identify with them as you do, to scream and pretend to be doing something useful.

Tell you what. If your cop sees every black man as a criminal because every report of a crime has a black (and less often a Hispanic) male as the perp then why do you think that he will respect us enough to treat us like humans?

Want to end police harassment of black men. Then figure out how to get more of them earning $30/hour in some blue collar job. Hispanics don't own Con Edison and yet almost every single person I see digging up the streets, if they aren't whites they are Hispanics, and NOT Mexicans either!
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:59 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Originally Posted by jgn2013 View Post
.. Perhaps creating a phone app with a function that is really useful for instance, would be a great idea.
Loads of blacks are already trying to do this. They usually lack access to capital to scale their operations. But there has been some success stories. Also in gaming as well, which fits into the phone app.

But here is the issue. Even if their businesses do succeed its likely that most of their employees aren't going to be blacks because blacks lack the experience. Small businesses cannot afford to train from scratch so they rely on those who already have the skills.

So the focus should be on helping blacks identify where the job opportunities exist and what they must do to get these jobs and succeed in these jobs.

Joing a bunch of white liberal kids, or worse yet the antifa, and screaming in the streets on its own will not solve the problem. As I said I am not against BLM as it has its place. But it needs to operate within a larger context.

Once black men are perceived to be predators because a not insignificant minority of us indeed are, this means that all of us will deal with this problem.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:23 PM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,666,164 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Do you think that blacks have a genetic disposition to being more criminal than other groups. This being what many non blacks think. The reason why there is a higher level of crime within black communities, when compared to Hispanic communities is because fewer black men are engaged in the labor force.

In NYC it is arguably the Mexicans who have the lowest involvement in crime among Hispanic groups, and Puerto Ricans the highest. Coincidentally Mexican men have the highest labor force participation rates in NYC. Puerto Rican male labor force participation is higher only than it is for black American men. Its is LOWER than it is for black Caribbean men.

The higher the level of crime in a community the more it will be policed. The more the police will develop a notion in their heads that they operate within a criminal community (either direct involvement or condoning this activity). Therefore the more one will see police abuse as in their minds everyone who they encounter is a perp until they are proved innocent.

You wail that the Civil Rights movement failed because it left many blacks economically marginalized. Yet you don't connect your BLM movement with the need to reduce economical marginalization?

So what is the goal of the BLM. An opportunity for young white Millennials, and those who identify with them as you do, to scream and pretend to be doing something useful.

Tell you what. If your cop sees every black man as a criminal because every report of a crime has a black (and less often a Hispanic) male as the perp then why do you think that he will respect us enough to treat us like humans?

Want to end police harassment of black men. Then figure out how to get more of them earning $30/hour in some blue collar job. Hispanics don't own Con Edison and yet almost every single person I see digging up the streets, if they aren't whites they are Hispanics, and NOT Mexicans either!
The cops historically saw Black men as criminals, and that's the issue.

People locked up in jail and who are treated like crap like the criminal justice system certainly aren't going to behave well.

End mass incarceration. Deal with the policing situation first and foremost.

Then you'd have to deal with the housing market as well. A white person who has enough of living around white opiate addicts can much more easily move away all that than a poor Black person in the hood. You spoke of elderly Black women victims of crimes. Part of the problem is they have often have no money, resources, or social ties to relocate from that.

We just had a Black couple in the white house. We've had Black secretary of states. We've had other successful Black people in the public domain and none of this has stopped police harassment of Black men.

Jewish people historically had a number of successful people and it did not stop the Holocaust. Nor does it stop Trump's anti semitic supporters.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:26 PM
 
7,437 posts, read 5,947,563 times
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Originally Posted by NyWriterdude View Post
End mass incarceration. Deal with the policing situation first and foremost.

.

You say that the Civil Rights movement failed because large numbers of blacks remain economically marginalized.

So why now your resistance to the fact that if the BLM is to succeed it needs to incorporate the fact that black men are INCREASINGLY being left out of the labor force?

In 1960 the fight was against laws that prohibited blacks from access to civic rights, and outside of the South the fight was for laws to prohibit discrimination in access to housing, employment, etc.

Now your fight is confined to policing.

What both movements ignore is that the problems that blacks have, even if they are the president of the United States, will not be resolved until the economic marginalization of blacks is reduced. Because all the negative perceptions of blacks come sfrom the fact that we are seen as a poor and failing group.

People can even bring up food stamps if the discussion is about black Harvard MBAs and lawyers. They can feel free to be disrespectful to Obama because he is not seen as a qualified person because he is attached to a group that is failing.

Until that perception of blacks changes nothing else will.

What remains a common fact between the Civil Rights struggles and of today's BLM is that blacks are the poorest group in this country. In fact the gap between black and Hispanic household median incomes is INCREASING.
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Old 09-14-2017, 12:01 PM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,666,164 times
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Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You say that the Civil Rights movement failed because large numbers of blacks remain economically marginalized.

So why now your resistance to the fact that if the BLM is to succeed it needs to incorporate the fact that black men are INCREASINGLY being left out of the labor force?

In 1960 the fight was against laws that prohibited blacks from access to civic rights, and outside of the South the fight was for laws to prohibit discrimination in access to housing, employment, etc.

Now your fight is confined to policing.

What both movements ignore is that the problems that blacks have, even if they are the president of the United States, will not be resolved until the economic marginalization of blacks is reduced. Because all the negative perceptions of blacks come sfrom the fact that we are seen as a poor and failing group.

People can even bring up food stamps if the discussion is about black Harvard MBAs and lawyers. They can feel free to be disrespectful to Obama because he is not seen as a qualified person because he is attached to a group that is failing.

Until that perception of blacks changes nothing else will.

What remains a common fact between the Civil Rights struggles and of today's BLM is that blacks are the poorest group in this country. In fact the gap between black and Hispanic household median incomes is INCREASING.
A race of people is not the President of the United States. Only one person is.

Negative perceptions of Black people are poor and failing have gone on for centuries, and it's not limited to the US. Predominately Black countries are also seen as poor and failing.

With that said, treating individuals or even groups horribly even IF they are poor and failing is wrong, plain and simple.

You also refuse to address that Jews are seen as successful, and were slaughtered in the Holocaust. Even today look at Trump's anti semitic supporters. Look at the anti Asian rhetoric, despite the success of countries like Japan, Korea, and China.

Having more Black professionals alone will not reduce racism against Black people.
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