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Old 04-30-2018, 05:11 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,954,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Top complaint I get is some debt they had to pay France. When I point out the debt was paid off in the 40s. They then respond with well itís racism and USA. I then point out in the 60s DR and Haiti had the same GDP per capita but now DRís GDP per capita is 10x higher, nothing but crickets from them.


Haiti does have a seriously and aggressively selfish and incompetent elite. Both the new elites who arose through the military and corrupt ties to the various despots, and the old land owning/merchant class.


If Haiti had competent and committed leadership they would be where the DR is now. That nation has also had its own share of tragedy.


Haitians need to stop being so defensive when talking to foreigners. That nation's problems are too evident.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:20 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,954,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codeninja View Post
I'm not writing this to start an argument with you. I just want to offer a different POV. The United States has the whole world thinking that "American" means just people from this country and that's not true.


So, I think we really need to move past this "I'm not African American" thing. Yes, actually, you are. You're just not an AA from the USA... and that's OK. I'm an AA from the USA (even though I don't like that term), but there are some things about the culture that I don't take part in, to the point that I'm called a white girl or "siditty" by some of my fellow AAs who misguidedly think they have to "keep it real". I just SMH and keep it moving. We can't help them all.


What some Americans, including AAs need to understand is that every society evolved differently. That means that attitudes differ.


So yes each nation has its own story. Even within the Spanish Caribbean Cuba, DR and PR have very different narratives. The DR is dominated by its neighbor, Haiti. Cuba dominated by its neighbor, the USA and by the heavy immigration from both Europe and trafficking of enslaved Africans in the 19th C.


An AA who looks like Rashida Jones is "black" in the USA. They faced racism as much as did those who looked like Snipes. In Jamaica and Haiti people looking like her were part of the OPPRESSIVE class, sometimes even worse than the fully white.




And as you said even many US born blacks, with ancestry all the way to slave ships which arrived in the British North American colonies, don't like the term "African American".
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:24 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,954,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
I've read about the Haitians fleeing to Chile. They found a loophole in Chile's immigration policy that essentially gives anyone that can get there a work permit. So in short order upwards of 150K Haitians have arrived there in a few years. The Chileans don't want to close the loophole as the left wingers are all about open borders and the center right government thinks there is a labor shortage.

Of course now many Haitians can't find jobs and are now penniless. These people suffer a lot.

I can see Venezuela recovering though they have a bourgeois class. A right wing coup should get things back on track there. Haiti is hopeless.


Haiti has a bourgeois class, please don't fool yourself. They in fact are as much of the problem as Papa Doc was.




Haitians have a problem and that is every nation has their issues and cannot indefinitely support people fleeing from a failed state. Many Haitians seems to have an entitlement mentality thinking that because they have a problem, and they do, that other nations should be obligated to help. Well the scale of a nation imploding reaches the point where nations eventually say "Enough!". True for Haiti, also for Venezuela.


I suggest that you get off your "left wingers" kick. In fact Chile is now closing down entrance for Haitians due to the sudden increase in numbers over the past 2 years. This as Brazil's economic woes forced Haitians to find an alternative. What kept it open aren't the "left wingers" but employers who like cheap, exploitable and hard working employees. Haitians with their desperation, being a perfect source for those. To call Chile a left wing nation is a serious joke.
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Old 04-30-2018, 07:05 PM
 
691 posts, read 922,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
What some Americans, including AAs need to understand is that every society evolved differently. That means that attitudes differ.


So yes each nation has its own story. Even within the Spanish Caribbean Cuba, DR and PR have very different narratives. The DR is dominated by its neighbor, Haiti. Cuba dominated by its neighbor, the USA and by the heavy immigration from both Europe and trafficking of enslaved Africans in the 19th C.


An AA who looks like Rashida Jones is "black" in the USA. They faced racism as much as did those who looked like Snipes. In Jamaica and Haiti people looking like her were part of the OPPRESSIVE class, sometimes even worse than the fully white.




And as you said even many US born blacks, with ancestry all the way to slave ships which arrived in the British North American colonies, don't like the term "African American".
I was reading that was the mistake Garvey made when he tried to organize in the USA. I read he only wanted
"pure" blacks in his organization...He operated under the assumption that as in Jamaica the mixed race elites
were on the side of the whites.

Not realizing that American whites viewed "blacks" and "colored" just as black, they didn't make a distinction
between the two like the British did in the Caribbean. Based on that assumption, he alienated a lot of "black"
Americans.
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Old 04-30-2018, 07:11 PM
 
691 posts, read 922,152 times
Reputation: 643
As I had mentioned in an earlier post...an AA innocently brought 2 Haitian friends together one was light and one was dark
and world war 3 erupted in his living room. It would be like a Haitian brought 2 Americans together in Haiti thinking he was
helping out and one American was a David Duke follower and the other was a Farrakhan follower. World war 3 would erupt in
HIS living room.
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:26 AM
 
24,247 posts, read 17,684,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Haiti has a bourgeois class, please don't fool yourself. They in fact are as much of the problem as Papa Doc was.




Haitians have a problem and that is every nation has their issues and cannot indefinitely support people fleeing from a failed state. Many Haitians seems to have an entitlement mentality thinking that because they have a problem, and they do, that other nations should be obligated to help. Well the scale of a nation imploding reaches the point where nations eventually say "Enough!". True for Haiti, also for Venezuela.


I suggest that you get off your "left wingers" kick. In fact Chile is now closing down entrance for Haitians due to the sudden increase in numbers over the past 2 years. This as Brazil's economic woes forced Haitians to find an alternative. What kept it open aren't the "left wingers" but employers who like cheap, exploitable and hard working employees. Haitians with their desperation, being a perfect source for those. To call Chile a left wing nation is a serious joke.
Neither Haiti nor Venezuela will be able to fix their problems any time soon. Both nations will continue to lose large numbers people. Chile is not ending Haitian immigration to Chile. They are restricting it somewhat. Employers in Chile love using cheap Haitian labor.

Of course, making it illegal to immigrate to a nation does not at all stop people from coming. People from poor nations, if they can find a way will just continue to come to wealthier nations. And wealthier nations never cut off the legal pathways for immigration. Nations that have lots of people moving to them tend to have much better economies.
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
9,876 posts, read 6,645,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Haiti has a bourgeois class, please don't fool yourself. They in fact are as much of the problem as Papa Doc was.
I remember the Haitian upper class were nicknamed MREs (morally repugnant elites).
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
I remember the Haitian upper class were nicknamed MREs (morally repugnant elites).
Lol
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Old 05-28-2018, 12:33 PM
 
338 posts, read 135,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codeninja View Post
I'm not writing this to start an argument with you. I just want to offer a different POV. The United States has the whole world thinking that "American" means just people from this country and that's not true. So, this is what I wish that people of African descent in the Caribbean, Central America and South America would understand: You are ALL African-Americans, too! The Caribbean is a part of the continent of North America. Central America is part of the continent of North America, we just call it "central" because of where it lies in proximity to the largest land mass on North America and the continent of South America. But, altogether the entire geographical area is AMERICA and we are ALL Americans.
I know I'm jumping in mid-conversation, but I find that no mentality that forces identities upon others is ever helpful in bringing folk together. Everyone has their spectrum of identity and code-switching. It reminds me how toxic the white-invented one-drop rule has been to major issues of colorism in slave-descended African-Americans to the United States.

We seem to be dropping the point that African-American is a historical and political category, that, post 1980s, also got wrapped up in the twisty, knotted history of slave-descended Africans to the US whose families were told for centuries they had no connection to "Africa." It's not just a genetic discussion. While blacks in Africa and other countries begin adopting the monikers mostly of postcolonial countries, so too did slave-descended African Americans. I care not to tell new or recent immigrants whether they have authority to use the label, but I would hope they'd be as informed to the history of the term (which means doing more work that crappy public school history classes) as they might expected of a slave-descended African American who does return to an African country and adopts a day-born name or the likes.

Quote:
The United States does not own, or exclusively get to use, the word "America".
Of course not, but no one's putting in the work to call themselves an African American United Statesian. Now why is that? If we want to overcome antiblackness within the diaspora, why are we still fighting over a word given to landmass by a colonizer?

Quote:
And, because ALL of the people of African descent who live in THE AMERICAS GOT HERE THE SAME WAY AND ARE THE SAME PEOPLE (your ancestors just got off the ship before ours, that's all), we really need to stop this separation, because we are ALL African-American! Having different cultural practices due to where our ancestors got off the slave ships does NOT negate that. And, in fact, we probably have more things in common than not.
Do you realize that this is an insensitive narration that is also just false? There's a vast difference between willful migration and forceful migration, choosing what built up area you wanted to move to versus being taken to a place to build it up. And peace to those African ancestors who abandoned ship. What contemporary African immigrant in jumping out of planes to get to this country? And refugees on the mend might not identify at all with what you're saying because choice is very important in the context.

Quote:
So, I think we really need to move past this "I'm not African American" thing. Yes, actually, you are. You're just not an AA from the USA... and that's OK. I'm an AA from the USA (even though I don't like that term), but there are some things about the culture that I don't take part in, to the point that I'm called a white girl or "siditty" by some of my fellow AAs who misguidedly think they have to "keep it real". I just SMH and keep it moving. We can't help them all.
I don't mean to be offensive, but that's some baggage that needs to eventually be let go some day, because I hear about similar experiences where some Black person whenever, wherever, however, was told by someone else that they're not Black enough. Insecurity brings out ugliness in people and they recycle that in their own interactions. It is sad, but it is also not distinct to Black communities.

One of the best things I've ever done as someone who identifies as AFAM, for I will never forsake my family and ancestors, as well as Black, is taking month-long trips to African countries with a purpose other than tourism and avoiding most expatriate places possible. I found I was not judged at all as a transient voyeur. That and I grew up in a very diverse Black community (middle-class doctor type Nigerians that didn't live in white enclaves, Haitians, Jamaicans and Sudanese). It's made me respect people's choices to identify however they want, but it's also made it easier to call people on their BS when they (or I) allow stereotypes about one another to override reality.
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:29 PM
 
7,454 posts, read 5,954,366 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agbor View Post
I was reading that was the mistake Garvey made when he tried to organize in the USA. I read he only wanted
"pure" blacks in his organization...He operated under the assumption that as in Jamaica the mixed race elites
were on the side of the whites.

Not realizing that American whites viewed "blacks" and "colored" just as black, they didn't make a distinction
between the two like the British did in the Caribbean. Based on that assumption, he alienated a lot of "black"
Americans.
This is quite true. What AAs found out to their shock on visiting Jamaica is that some of the "browns" are the "whites" of Jamaica. They identify with their white ancestors and were also tools of oppression of the poor black populations. When an AA called them "black" they considered this to be a massive insult. Many had attitudes towards blacks that would make a "redneck" blush. Attitudes are now changing as there is less of a stigma to be black than there was even 30 years ago.

So Garvey arrived with probably more animosity towards the so called light skinned blacks than he harbored against the whites.

What people have to understand is that race is a social construct and so identities which evolve depend on the context that they operated under. As an example Alicia Keyes is "black" in the USA (though these days having a white mother might allow her to claim to be biracial). She will be a "browning" in Jamaica. In much of Latin America (the countries with large Afro descendant populations) she could claim to be "white".

The explanations for this lie in the historical heritages of these societies.
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